Is the Confederate Flag a Symbol of Racism or History?
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Author Topic: Is the Confederate Flag a Symbol of Racism or History?  (Read 478 times)
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« on: May 09, 2017, 11:58:14 am »

My boy (not in a racist way, you race baiters) Terrence Williams preachin' some truth;

https://www.facebook.com/terrencewilliams.truizms/videos/10207685027158602/
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« Reply #1 on: May 09, 2017, 12:18:03 pm »

It is History, but so is the Nazi symbol in Germany; does that make it right for certain groups to display the symbol?

I am all for people's rights as long as they don't interfere of hurt other people's rights.

The Confederate flag is a symbol of a time when slavery and abuse of different people was allowed and considered okay.

The Nazi symbol was of a time when Germany was trying to 'Make Germany strong again" after years of problems, the symbol represents the abuse of people who did not fall into the 'norms' of the party.

Both are History but does that mean we should be displaying them on Federal buildings and in public places; I think not.
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« Reply #2 on: May 10, 2017, 01:01:00 am »

We should call it the Traitor Flag!
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« Reply #3 on: May 10, 2017, 01:19:36 am »

As someone who spent the first half of his upbringing in Los Angeles, and the second half of his upbringing in rural southeast Oklahoma, I've seen the confederate/"rebel" flag used in many different ways. Yes, it has, and is, used as a racist symbol. Yes it has, and is, used as an anti-American symbol. But most of all, it is, in fact, used as nothing more than a symbol of southern pride and heritage, and/or a general dislike for authority.

That being said, even if it was just a racist symbol and nothing else, that wouldn't change how important and integral a part of our history it is. Like it or not, racism is a part of history, and we should not ignore it or pretend it never happened to avoid offending retards. Erasing the horrible, darker portions of our history will only doom us to repeat the autocracies, and forget the victims, and courageous actions of the brave men and women who fought against those inequities and paved the way for a brighter future.

That is why when I hear all these news stories about cities dismantling confederate monuments, removing graves of confederate historical figures from city cemeteries, destroying statues on university campuses because for all the guy's accomplishments he once said something sexist, etc. it scares the ever loving hell out of me.
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« Reply #4 on: May 10, 2017, 01:43:08 am »

i just kind of see this confederate flag thing as the result of bad apples spoiling the whole bunch

there are people who use the flag as a symbol of their traditions, sure. there are also people who use the flag as a symbol of hate, racism, or in protest against America. Since I'm not going to go and ask everyone with the flag their intentions, it just leaves a "maybe" in my head about the people who own it.

to me the symbol isn't worth all the negative association connected to it. southern tradition is rich and I don't see the necessity of a flag to symbolize it or any other culture for that matter.

and I don't really consider it erasing history. I don't think many people are out there asking for the flag to be removed from history textbooks or databases. The swastika is arguably a much more offensive symbol and we don't go and see it waved all over the place anymore- that doesn't mean we forgot it. Most people know what a swastika is.
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« Reply #5 on: May 10, 2017, 02:20:42 am »

It's racist plain and simple.  I'm from the Northeast and people in New Hampshire have confederate flag decals all over their pickup trucks.  They think it makes them a bad ass.  These people have no connection to the south.
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« Reply #6 on: May 10, 2017, 06:10:18 am »

So, let's talk about this "Confederate Flag." First, the flag that is often referred to as the "Confederate Flag" was never the national flag of the Confederate States of America. The CSA had three flags over its 5 year existence. 
  • The first CSA Flag (referred to as "The Stars and Bars") was very similar to the current Flag of Austria, except it had a blue square at the upper hoist (side closest to the flag pole) with a star for each state in the CSA arranged in a ring. It was massively unpopular because people thought it looked too similar to the Flag of the United States.
    The State of Georgia bases its current flag on this flag.  Also, Texas flies this flag along with the five other flags that have flown over the state throughout history on the grounds of the state legislature (they also fly the flags of the Kingdom of Spain, the Kingdom of France, Mexico, the Republic of Texas and the United States).  No one really complains about these flags being flown because most don't know how they connect to the confederacy or because they are presented in a historical manner.
  • The second CSA Flag (referred to as the "The Stainless Banner") was a white piece of cloth with the Battle Flag of Northern Virginia (the "Confederate Flag" but square in dimensions) in the upper hoist.  This flag was also not popular because of many reasons.  First, it was hard to keep clean for very long.  Secondly, since most of it was just a white cloth, it was easy to mistake the flag as for the white flag of surrender.
  • The third, and final, CSA Flag (referred to as the "The Blood-Stained Banner") was almost exactly like the previous flag, except with a different dimension for the Battle Flag of Northern Virginia at the upper hoist and a red bar on the fly (portion of the flag farthest away from the flagpole. Very little can be said about this flag since it was only adopted about a month before the CSA ceased to exist.


The closest you can get to the "Confederate Flag" being flown during the Civil War/War of Northern Aggression/War for Southern Independence/etc was the Second Naval Jack (used between 1863 and 1865).  However, the colors are slightly different from the "Confederate Flag" and most people would say there is something wrong with it if they saw it.

Now, onto whether the "Confederate Flag" represents racism or represents "Southern Pride," frankly its two sides of the same coin.  Yes, the South does have it's own history and unique culture, but a lot of that was born out of racism.  The South had Jim Crow laws, open acceptance of lynchings, and strict segregation rules.  Now that's not to say that it was better for non-whites outside of the South, but I do feel there is a difference between cultural norms and laws prohibiting certain actions.  To say that it only represents "Southern Pride" is effectively white washing the horrible actions the South did throughout its history, which I'm sure the OP complains about others doing.

Also, this is a perfect example of cherry picking and the "true Scotsman fallacy."  This one black man supports what I support; therefore, he is correct and every [black person] who doesn't agree with him is wrong.  Just because that one man has a particular viewpoint does not mean that opposing viewpoints are wrong.  Furthermore, I feel Terrence Williams was making a false dichotomy where there isn't one.  He effectively stated that those who oppose the flying of the "Confederate Flag" also condone the use of nigger/nigga/etc.  Those are two issues that are not really connected.  The NAACP doesn't like official flyings of the "Confederate Flag" but they also don't like people (including black people) using the word nigger/nigga/etc
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« Reply #7 on: May 10, 2017, 07:05:12 am »

It depends on the context in which the flag is shown. If published in a history book, or in a museum, or in a documentary, or a historic reenactment, it's history. If it's being flown at a skinhead rally, or on a monument to an anti-civil rights politician, or was put up on a government building back in the 50s as a response to the civil rights movement (I think this was the case in... Georgia, was it?) then it's all about race.

Government buildings should not fly the Confederate flag. The flag is a symbol of the dissolution of the United States and THAT particular question was settled 170-ish years ago. Any subsequent flying of the flag by local and state governments should be considered treasonable, as it implies advocating the break-up of the the US (one of the legal definitions of treason, if I recall), and/or racist, as the flag is a symbol of the attempt to claim race superiority, in the same way the original Confederates who used the flag and it's variations, thought of themselves.

Any "pride" associated with the flag is by default, pride in white supremacy, given the social and historic associations with the flag, whether it's supports are willing to admit it or not.

Just my two cents.
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« Reply #8 on: May 10, 2017, 07:16:38 am »

i just kind of see this confederate flag thing as the result of bad apples spoiling the whole bunch

there are people who use the flag as a symbol of their traditions, sure. there are also people who use the flag as a symbol of hate, racism, or in protest against America. Since I'm not going to go and ask everyone with the flag their intentions, it just leaves a "maybe" in my head about the people who own it.

to me the symbol isn't worth all the negative association connected to it. southern tradition is rich and I don't see the necessity of a flag to symbolize it or any other culture for that matter.

and I don't really consider it erasing history. I don't think many people are out there asking for the flag to be removed from history textbooks or databases. The swastika is arguably a much more offensive symbol and we don't go and see it waved all over the place anymore- that doesn't mean we forgot it. Most people know what a swastika is.

This is how i see it

A symbol used by a minority in a really awful way, that now has tainted any positive light that the flag, could have had -

It reminds me of some small minorities anger over the use of the rainbow and the word gay for gay/lesbian pride
In fact - some people see the rainbow flag in the same way - as tainted
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« Reply #9 on: May 10, 2017, 07:24:10 am »

Quote
Any "pride" associated with the flag is by default, pride in white supremacy, given the social and historic associations with the flag, whether it's supports are willing to admit it or not.

My dad belonged to a motorcycle club when we lived in North Carolina.   It was mixed race since most of the people were military.   The "rebel flag" was part of their "colors". 

The only thing these people were into was motorcycles and helping people. 
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« Reply #10 on: May 11, 2017, 02:55:04 pm »

It's a flag that represented the confederate states during the civil war. Call it what you will but I would say simply it's part of History. What it stood for is up for debate but many of the ideals it represented was associated with enslaving a group of individuals for the profit of rich white men.

There are many that find this flag very offensive. I'm sure your friend Jeff Sessions finds the confederate flag a beautiful symbol considering he is from the most treasonous of all states, South Carolina!!!
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« Reply #11 on: May 11, 2017, 06:51:00 pm »

There are many that find this flag very offensive. I'm sure your friend Jeff Sessions finds the confederate flag a beautiful symbol considering he is from the most treasonous of all states, South Carolina!!!

He is from ALABAMA!
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« Reply #12 on: May 11, 2017, 06:56:06 pm »

I am from Alabama, and have deep roots throughout the state of Alabama and indeed of the entire South. These same roots go even deeper up the colonies to the Mayflower. The only thing that makes the flag a big deal is the people that are opposed to it. The people that are opposed to it are so they can get their 15 minutes. It is never about the flag, or for what it supposedly stands for, it is about some greater "social justice" issue.

Secretary Rice makes some good points on this issue:
http://yellowhammernews.com/politics-2/condoleezza-rice-blasts-efforts-to-sanitize-history-by-removing-historic-monuments-cdr/
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« Reply #13 on: May 13, 2017, 07:27:47 am »

I think some people wallow in oppression.   

I converted a rapper from doing songs about black are oppressed to doing songs about black empowerment.     He'd never had an actual conversation with a white person who owns a business.    He went from doing songs about whitey refusing to give jobs to blacks to doing songs about staying in school and bettering yourself. 

I see this situation being kinda the same.   

Rather than focusing on actual oppression, people are getting butt hurt of some historical thing. 


Despite what the Nazis did to gays, I don't wallow in oppression every time I see a Nazi symbol.   I don't wallow in the fact that when the Allies freed the concentration camps, gays were left there and later sent to a proper prison, while everyone else was released.   Maybe I should view all the symbols of the allies as oppression too.
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« Reply #14 on: May 13, 2017, 02:20:37 pm »

I think some people wallow in oppression.   

I converted a rapper from doing songs about black are oppressed to doing songs about black empowerment.     He'd never had an actual conversation with a white person who owns a business.    He went from doing songs about whitey refusing to give jobs to blacks to doing songs about staying in school and bettering yourself. 

I see this situation being kinda the same.   

Rather than focusing on actual oppression, people are getting butt hurt of some historical thing. 


Despite what the Nazis did to gays, I don't wallow in oppression every time I see a Nazi symbol.   I don't wallow in the fact that when the Allies freed the concentration camps, gays were left there and later sent to a proper prison, while everyone else was released.   Maybe I should view all the symbols of the allies as oppression too.

Were Nazi flags raised near Government buildings?
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« Reply #15 on: May 13, 2017, 02:24:24 pm »

It's both. They aren't mutually exclusive.

The confederate flag is also the definition of anti-american.
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« Reply #16 on: May 13, 2017, 02:47:44 pm »

I think some people wallow in oppression.   
...
Rather than focusing on actual oppression, people are getting butt hurt of some historical thing.  

You didn't actually make an argument that the confederate flag isn't a symbol of racism, presumably because you know it is. Instead, what you did is lump together rapping about white people not hiring black people with being upset about our government proudly flying a flag that symbolizes the treasonous lengths white people once went to protect their right to treat other people as chattel slavery.
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« Reply #17 on: May 13, 2017, 05:12:28 pm »

Let's be honest here. Both apply equally. Anyone who claims otherwise... well let's just not start that argument up. The Nazi flag and Swastika is another example of something that is both.

Then again, the Swastika is stole image and icon.
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« Reply #18 on: May 13, 2017, 05:34:35 pm »

I hope you realize that whites weren't the only slave owners in the US.   Plenty of blacks also owned slaves.  

Chattel slavery came to the new world through Anthony Johnson (former indentured slave himself) when he refused to let go of his indentured slave John Casor.     It was a black man that gave the new world chattel slavery.

In 1705, Virginia declared that any non christian (Protestant) was a slave.   Race wasn't even mentioned.
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« Reply #19 on: May 13, 2017, 08:49:45 pm »

I think some people wallow in oppression.   
...
Rather than focusing on actual oppression, people are getting butt hurt of some historical thing.  

You didn't actually make an argument that the confederate flag isn't a symbol of racism, presumably because you know it is. Instead, what you did is lump together rapping about white people not hiring black people with being upset about our government proudly flying a flag that symbolizes the treasonous lengths white people once went to protect their right to treat other people as chattel slavery.

Don't rewrite history. The War was not about slavery, alone, and actually had NOTHING to do with moral issues of slavery, but of the economic and financial consequences.
Slavery of blacks on this continent would never have existed if their fellow Africans weren't so willing to sell each other into it.
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