What do people really need?
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« on: July 23, 2017, 09:26:03 am »

This ongoing covfefe about healthcare is essentially "cutting off people's noses in spite their face".

Here is one example of that:
I lived in New Orleans for a time..   in New Orleans there are a few bars / clubs that have totally nude dancers who are mainly there to pick up tricks, and allow people sitting at the bar to insert their fingers up their assholes.  Most of those guys are straight, and would never be doing that except for the fact that they need to pay their rent or college tuition.   These guys typically have minimum wage jobs, and are full of health and vitality.  Do you think that it is fair to require these guys to pay into a healthcare system that keeps people who are dying alive a few more years?   Why should employers be forced to pay into health care plans for their employees, rather than giving that money to their employees?  In fact, employers now have severely cut back on the number of workers they employ, and the number of hours they work, so they don't get stuck with astronomical health care costs.  Some young person needs a job.. but can only get part time work at minimum wage.. if they are lucky enough to get even that.. and then are required to pay for healthcare on top of that? 
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« Reply #1 on: July 23, 2017, 04:33:49 pm »

This ongoing covfefe about healthcare is essentially "cutting off people's noses in spite their face".

Here is one example of that:
I lived in New Orleans for a time..   in New Orleans there are a few bars / clubs that have totally nude dancers who are mainly there to pick up tricks, and allow people sitting at the bar to insert their fingers up their assholes.  Most of those guys are straight, and would never be doing that except for the fact that they need to pay their rent or college tuition.   These guys typically have minimum wage jobs, and are full of health and vitality.  Do you think that it is fair to require these guys to pay into a healthcare system that keeps people who are dying alive a few more years?   Why should employers be forced to pay into health care plans for their employees, rather than giving that money to their employees?  In fact, employers now have severely cut back on the number of workers they employ, and the number of hours they work, so they don't get stuck with astronomical health care costs.  Some young person needs a job.. but can only get part time work at minimum wage.. if they are lucky enough to get even that.. and then are required to pay for healthcare on top of that? 

I agree with you there.  One of the reasons healthcare is so expensive is because the employer is involved.  We need to cut them out of the equation.  Let insurers sell directly to consumers and you will see the price come down.  Unfortunately that will only work if everyone is required to purchase it.

And to answer your question......hookers should have health insurance.
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« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2017, 08:15:29 pm »

I see a false narrative in the opening post that is repeated often here in terms of health care, and I would like to identify it and be done with it.

Too often, the argument here is:  The young, beautiful and virtuous shouldn't have to pay for insurance coverage, since their premiums go to provide care for nasty, old, dissolute people whose need for health care is their "fault," because of bad choices that made them overweight, smokers, etc.

Even in the example at top, the young dancer/hookers are using the money they saved -- by avoiding evil insurance -- for college!  How noble!  (Why is that detail even relevant?  I guess they are pole dancing for independent study credits towards a degree as sexy Human Resources.)

Aren't middle-aged, pot-bellied, GED-holding bartenders in that same club deserving of health care, too?  Eye care for an older teacher of special-needs children?   A 40-year old construction worker with skin cancer?  Or is that last guy less worthy for not using more sunscreen?

Where do all these people fit in this game of blame?  And knowing the risks of all that gyrating, did those insurance-avoiding pole dancers have the foresight to put aside $300,000 for that mid-life slipped disc operation?

The current U.S. system can only lurch ahead, with great imperfection, via a CYCLICAL mechanism that compels those young, healthy (and apparently STD-free?) hookers to pay in early, on the front end, for their likelihood of greater utilization in later years.  That is, until the U.S. joins every other developed nation with some form of single-payer plan.

And for those who are in countries with national health care, and think it's so inferior to U.S. insurance companies, that may have been true a decade or two back.  Today, private plans (including my not-for-profit "Blue Shield") are also a living hell of long waits -- same as universal care -- but then magnified by endless haggling for prior authorizations, coupled with higher deductibles, rising copayments, and onward and downward.
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« Reply #3 on: July 23, 2017, 08:22:09 pm »

Republicans seem to believe that you only deserve healthcare if you pass some sot of moral test.  If that were the case our own President wouldn't qualify.  Lucky for him, he has taxpayer funded healthcare and doesn't need to worry about it.
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« Reply #4 on: July 23, 2017, 09:39:32 pm »

Republicans seem to believe that you only deserve healthcare if you pass some sot of moral test.  If that were the case our own President wouldn't qualify.  Lucky for him, he has taxpayer funded healthcare and doesn't need to worry about it.


Do you seriously believe that a multi billionaire goes to mainstream healthcare providers with health insurance?  He has his own personal physicians.  In fact, one reason the Secret Service don't like Trump is that he often uses his own personal security. 

Apparently the democrats don't think that the people covered by Obamacare deserve any insurance, because Obamacare is insolvent - a ticking time bomb that is in an irrecoverable death spiral. 
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« Reply #5 on: July 23, 2017, 09:49:36 pm »

And you really think that Trump is charging everything to the government that he possibly can?  His doctor is billing the government.  Trump has been bilking the taxpayers for decades.  He isn't going to change now.  Remember, it makes him a smart businessman.....

The idea that ObamaCare is in a death spiral is absolutely ludicrous.  Trump is going to stop funding it and then claim it imploded.  It's the equivalent of not giving a dog food and and water and then claiming it died of "natural causes."

The fact is that the exchanges just  had their best quarter ever (Q1 2017) and they are expected to be profitable in 2018.

http://fortune.com/2017/04/10/obamacare-death-spiral-profit/

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« Reply #6 on: July 24, 2017, 01:17:28 am »


Do you seriously believe that a multi billionaire goes to mainstream healthcare providers with health insurance?  He has his own personal physicians.  In fact, one reason the Secret Service don't like Trump is that he often uses his own personal security. 

Apparently the democrats don't think that the people covered by Obamacare deserve any insurance, because Obamacare is insolvent - a ticking time bomb that is in an irrecoverable death spiral. 

At the risk of repeating myself, Frederick, I think your theory of younger people not needing to buy insurance coverage in our U.S health care system is flawed.   Why should they be allowed to not participate, when they will surely want help with medical services somewhere down the road?
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« Reply #7 on: July 24, 2017, 04:41:02 pm »


Insurance is a must!

You never know what is planned for yourself!

 Evil


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« Reply #8 on: July 24, 2017, 05:52:06 pm »


Insurance is a must!

You never know what is planned for yourself!

 Evil




Insurance is not a must.   I've never needed health insurance, and up until 2 years ago, my father did not either. 
Besides.. just because you have insurance doesn't mean you are insured...    you are only insured for what is covered.  Try to find an insurance plan that covers vision, hearing, or dental.   GOOD LUCK! 
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« Reply #9 on: July 24, 2017, 10:30:31 pm »


Insurance is a must!

You never know what is planned for yourself!

 Evil




Insurance is not a must.   I've never needed health insurance, and up until 2 years ago, my father did not either. 
Besides.. just because you have insurance doesn't mean you are insured...    you are only insured for what is covered.  Try to find an insurance plan that covers vision, hearing, or dental.   GOOD LUCK! 

Well.. I spoke from personal experience where at one point of my life I got covered!

 Cool


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« Reply #10 on: July 25, 2017, 01:06:42 am »


Insurance is a must!

You never know what is planned for yourself!

 Evil



Try to find an insurance plan that covers vision, hearing, or dental.   GOOD LUCK! 

The "free market" for various reasons decided a long time ago that those things should be separate.  Just wait until Republicans are done bringing us more of the market based reforms.  You will need to insure each limb individually.
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« Reply #11 on: July 25, 2017, 01:07:55 am »

and up until 2 years ago, my father did not either. 


Your father is exactly why the Republican plan will never work.  You can't just buy insurance when you get sick.  The system cannot survive that way.
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« Reply #12 on: August 06, 2017, 05:28:34 am »


Insurance is a must!

You never know what is planned for yourself!

 Evil



Try to find an insurance plan that covers vision, hearing, or dental.   GOOD LUCK! 

The "free market" for various reasons decided a long time ago that those things should be separate.  Just wait until Republicans are done bringing us more of the market based reforms.  You will need to insure each limb individually.

Unfortunately, the future does not seem promising..

 Evil


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« Reply #13 on: August 06, 2017, 09:49:21 am »

Quote
Too often, the argument here is:  The young, beautiful and virtuous shouldn't have to pay for insurance coverage, since their premiums go to provide care for nasty, old, dissolute people whose need for health care is their "fault," because of bad choices that made them overweight, smokers, etc. 

A company I used to work for in the US had a program like this, as a "benefit".

It was an annual "complete check up".   

Young people would pay astronomical amounts, while older people would pay very little.   This is despite young people getting very few tests and older people getting lots of tests.     It's a complete rip off for young people just starting out on much lower salaries. 

A doctor friend, who I showed the paperwork to, told me not to do it until I was 55yo because it was a rip off til then.
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« Reply #14 on: August 06, 2017, 04:05:13 pm »

Quote
Too often, the argument here is:  The young, beautiful and virtuous shouldn't have to pay for insurance coverage, since their premiums go to provide care for nasty, old, dissolute people whose need for health care is their "fault," because of bad choices that made them overweight, smokers, etc. 

A company I used to work for in the US had a program like this, as a "benefit".

It was an annual "complete check up".   

Young people would pay astronomical amounts, while older people would pay very little.   This is despite young people getting very few tests and older people getting lots of tests.     It's a complete rip off for young people just starting out on much lower salaries. 

A doctor friend, who I showed the paperwork to, told me not to do it until I was 55yo because it was a rip off til then.


I'm confused.  Was this an insurance plan?
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« Reply #15 on: August 07, 2017, 11:16:13 am »

It wasn't insurance as such.   It was just a program that you could sign up for.     

Employee's got free health insurance through work.   
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« Reply #16 on: August 07, 2017, 01:32:04 pm »

It wasn't insurance as such.   It was just a program that you could sign up for.     

Employee's got free health insurance through work.   

I think what you meant was that the employer was taking money that would presumably be going to the employee, and instead being used to purchase health insurance for that employee.   That money going to the insurance company could  have been spent on better office equipment, salaries, vacation time, etc. 
Instead of saying "Free" I wish people would say "Health insurance paid for out of our salaries before we ever saw the money". 

At one place I worked, the office set the employees up with an insurance plan (that sucked).  Hardly anybody in this small office of about 16 workers used the insurance for anything.. except for this one woman with 6 kids including 2 twin toddlers.  She was CONSTANTLY bringing her little bastards to the doctor, causing the premiums for the insurance to rise for all the office.   I resented paying for this woman's litter of kids from multiple husbands.   Why should a healthcare plan not only cover the "intended" person, but also all the dependents of that person? 
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« Reply #17 on: August 09, 2017, 04:17:02 am »


Insurance is a must!

You never know what is planned for yourself!

 Evil




Insurance is not a must.   I've never needed health insurance, and up until 2 years ago, my father did not either. 
Besides.. just because you have insurance doesn't mean you are insured...    you are only insured for what is covered BEYOND your deductible.  My dad's wife's mother had hurricane hit her house.  There was a LOT of damage.  She had homeowner's insurance.. but her deductible was MORE than the damage, so she got NOTHING!   Try to find an insurance plan that covers vision, hearing, or dental.   GOOD LUCK! 
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