Organized crime (mafia) and Healthcare..
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« on: August 06, 2017, 06:57:30 pm »

One of the classic organized crime schemes is to extort money out of people and businesses for protection.  Whether the people and businesses could afford it, or needed it, or wanted it, they are forced to pay.  If they don't pay, they don't just lose this protection, they are penalized. 

How is that any different from being forced to pay for healthcare that is not affordable, not needed, not wanted, and with such high deductibles that even if one did have it and needed it, they could not use it because they can't afford the deductibles? 

When government behaves like organized crime - and worse, that is not a good thing! 
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« Reply #1 on: August 06, 2017, 07:06:32 pm »

Why are we forced to pay for police and fire protection?  I've never need a cop and my house has never caught on fire.  It seems that someone owes me a big fat refund!
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« Reply #2 on: August 06, 2017, 07:15:36 pm »

Why are we forced to pay for police and fire protection?  I've never need a cop and my house has never caught on fire.  It seems that someone owes me a big fat refund!

I agree.   Where I live, they itemize what property taxes are being spent on, and it is outrageous!
I EXPECTED that the vast amount of it went to education (which itself is extremely inefficient), but it does NOT!   Education is small potatoes compared to other social services.   They really need to get government spending under control.
Here is one example, one county in Florida just got kits in all police cars to save people dying from heroin overdoses.  Great idea?  The cost of those kits is $6750 per car!  The actual narcan dose is less than $20, but no no no.. the KIT for the car costs $6750! 
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« Reply #3 on: August 06, 2017, 07:17:09 pm »

If only sick people buy health insurance the system can't survive.  It isn't setup that way.  Single payer healthcare would be much more efficient but Republicans wouldn't dare do anything that doesn't generate a profit off sick people.  They are Christian after all.....
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« Reply #4 on: August 06, 2017, 09:08:56 pm »

If only sick people buy health insurance the system can't survive.  It isn't setup that way.  Single payer healthcare would be much more efficient but Republicans wouldn't dare do anything that doesn't generate a profit off sick people.  They are Christian after all.....

You are ignoring the fact that most people who buy insurance don't need it at the time they purchase it.
The point is.. nobody should be FORCED to purchase insurance, and certainly not penalized if they don't. 
That is the entire point of insurance.
You are also ignoring the fact that insurance costs WAY WAY WAY WAY too much, and the benefits suck.  Healthcare itself costs WAY WAY WAY WAY too much. 

Consider what is going to happen 50 years from now.  Unless something unimaginable happens, social security will be a trivial pittance with which people will be lucky to buy enough food to eat, and healthcare will be like a clinic that does nothing but bandages and casts on broken bones - period.  Just take a look at China or Africa. 
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« Reply #5 on: August 07, 2017, 01:58:52 am »

But how do you make it affordable if you expect people to only buy it when they need it?  We already had that in this country.  We had high risk pools in all 50 states.  They were extremely unpopular and extremely expensive.

Once again you are making the case for socialized medicine.  If you want to know if it will work just look at Medicare.  Your father has the choice between traditional Medicare that is run by the government  (pat A and B) or he can choose a private Medicare Advantage (part C) plan.  Over 85% of seniors have chosen the government option.  They don't want the bureaucracy of insurance companies.  They choose the government option because it is simple.  I'm going to guess your father is in the 85%.

We should have a system like this for all Americans where they can choose between a government option and a private one.  I actually think there is a lot of value in Medicare Advantage plans for some people.  It's nice to have choice.
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« Reply #6 on: August 07, 2017, 03:40:55 am »

When government behaves like organized crime? 

Wow--Frederick. You really stepped into a huge and complicated argument that political scientists, scholars, critics, marxists, anarchists, citizens,  etc have spent ages trying to solve.

I actually want to engage with you in a discussion, but trolling you is a lot more fun. Besides, you just like answering your own questions, feigning an interest in actual dialogue.  Right?  Wink  Who's trolling who?

By the way, one definition of the modern nation state is that which has a monopoly on violence. Would you like a violence free society?  Or do you want a continual war between "citizens" and the "state"?



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« Reply #7 on: August 07, 2017, 03:53:51 am »

But how do you make it affordable if you expect people to only buy it when they need it?  We already had that in this country.  We had high risk pools in all 50 states.  They were extremely unpopular and extremely expensive.

Once again you are making the case for socialized medicine.  If you want to know if it will work just look at Medicare.  Your father has the choice between traditional Medicare that is run by the government  (pat A and B) or he can choose a private Medicare Advantage (part C) plan.  Over 85% of seniors have chosen the government option.  They don't want the bureaucracy of insurance companies.  They choose the government option because it is simple.  I'm going to guess your father is in the 85%.

We should have a system like this for all Americans where they can choose between a government option and a private one.  I actually think there is a lot of value in Medicare Advantage plans for some people.  It's nice to have choice.

Same way you make other insurance affordable.. such as home, life, and auto.  
The main thing you keep ignoring is that the healthcare itself costs at least 10 times as much as it should.  Of course the insurance is going to cost a fortune when the insurance company is paying out $25,000 per day just to share a tiny room in a hospital ($50,000 per day per room).  An hour long procedure costs $28,000?  OMG!    Running a 1 liter bag of a saline and anesthetic solution for 1 hour is $5000?   Shift that decimal point to the left, and THEN insurance costs will plummet.

My current computer has 16,000,000,000 bytes of RAM,  a 500 billion byte Solid State Drive.. a 2000 billion (2 TB) mechanical SATA hard drive,  an i7 7th gen quad core 2.7 ghz cpu... a 4k ultra high resolution NVIDIA Geoforce 950m video,  15.6" touchscreen, ultra audio including an external woofer, HDMI output, Bluetooth, ultra high speed wifi, USB C thunderbolt which is so fast that you can't even find accessories that can fully utilize it (50 times faster than USB 3.0)      If that was a product being sold to the government, it would easily cost MILLIONS!   That one liter bag of 99% salt water cost $5000.  One hour of labor for that doctor to perform the procedure $28,000.   So.. how much did my computer cost.. including shipping?   Perhaps a billion dollars?  No.. $850!  
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« Reply #8 on: August 07, 2017, 11:57:27 am »

Maybe we should force everyone to buy car insurance too.   After all, it's not about need according to leftists.   


Why does my anti abortion Christian uncle have to subsidize abortions?     He's not against subsidizing preventatives like "the pill" and implants, but he is totally against paying for abortions.   In fact, my dad's entire side of the family is like this. 
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« Reply #9 on: August 08, 2017, 12:51:30 am »


Same way you make other insurance affordable.. such as home, life, and auto. 
 

So then you do agree!  Everyone should have to buy insurance!  The reason that the system works with home and auto insurance is that every home and auto (in most states) must be insured

Life insurance is a little different but the payouts are set to a fixed amount so it's fairly predictable as to how much will be paid out.

You keep talking about these  astronomical prices but they don't really matter because nobody pays those prices.  The insurers and providers negotiate rates that are MUCH lower.
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« Reply #10 on: August 08, 2017, 12:53:09 am »

Maybe we should force everyone to buy car insurance too.   After all, it's not about need according to leftists.   


Why does my anti abortion Christian uncle have to subsidize abortions?     He's not against subsidizing preventatives like "the pill" and implants, but he is totally against paying for abortions.   In fact, my dad's entire side of the family is like this. 

Because that's how insurance works.  I have to subsidize a guy who drives his car 110 miles per hour for fun and for some asshole who builds his house in a flood zone.

Once again, you are making the case for single payer.
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« Reply #11 on: August 08, 2017, 03:42:29 am »

Maybe we should force everyone to buy car insurance too.   After all, it's not about need according to leftists.   


Why does my anti abortion Christian uncle have to subsidize abortions?     He's not against subsidizing preventatives like "the pill" and implants, but he is totally against paying for abortions.   In fact, my dad's entire side of the family is like this. 

Because that's how insurance works.  I have to subsidize a guy who drives his car 110 miles per hour for fun and for some asshole who builds his house in a flood zone.

Once again, you are making the case for single payer.

You seem pleased that people who can't afford and don't want insurance are forced to pay for it.  That is twisted!

As for the guy who drives his car fast and the asshole in a flood zone.. they pay MUCH higher insurance premiums.  In healthcare.. everyone pays the same for the same coverage.  Imagine paying the same insurance premiums as the auto maniac or floodzone guy!   
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« Reply #12 on: August 08, 2017, 03:48:47 am »

The Supreme Court has upheld that the Obamacare individual mandate is a tax, not insurance.
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« Reply #13 on: August 08, 2017, 06:03:14 am »

The Supreme Court has upheld that the Obamacare individual mandate is a tax, not insurance.

I completely forgot about that!  Thanks for the reminder!
Obamacare is essentially a poll tax. 
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« Reply #14 on: August 08, 2017, 07:17:53 am »

Maybe we should force everyone to buy car insurance too.   After all, it's not about need according to leftists.   


Why does my anti abortion Christian uncle have to subsidize abortions?     He's not against subsidizing preventatives like "the pill" and implants, but he is totally against paying for abortions.   In fact, my dad's entire side of the family is like this. 

Because that's how insurance works.  I have to subsidize a guy who drives his car 110 miles per hour for fun and for some asshole who builds his house in a flood zone.

Once again, you are making the case for single payer.

Are you saying we should have single payer for car insurance?   
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« Reply #15 on: August 08, 2017, 01:03:23 pm »




You seem pleased that people who can't afford and don't want insurance are forced to pay for it.  That is twisted!



It's those same people who Romney referred to as "freeloaders" who opt out of the system by not paying anything but then they use the emergency room anyway and force those costs onto YOU. 

You seem pleased to pay for people who choose not to be responsible and buy their own health coverage.  I'm tired of paying for freeloaders.  Pay for your own care.
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« Reply #16 on: August 08, 2017, 04:41:56 pm »




You seem pleased that people who can't afford and don't want insurance are forced to pay for it.  That is twisted!



It's those same people who Romney referred to as "freeloaders" who opt out of the system by not paying anything but then they use the emergency room anyway and force those costs onto YOU. 

You seem pleased to pay for people who choose not to be responsible and buy their own health coverage.  I'm tired of paying for freeloaders.  Pay for your own care.

How are you paying for "freeloaders"?   Are you saying that insurance companies are paying for healthcare given to people without insurance?  Which insurance company is being billed for that? 
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« Reply #17 on: August 08, 2017, 04:59:59 pm »

By "freeloaders", I think he means the illegals who always go to the ER every time they get the sniffles because they know they won't have to pay for it.
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« Reply #18 on: August 09, 2017, 12:37:35 am »

By "freeloaders", I think he means the illegals who always go to the ER every time they get the sniffles because they know they won't have to pay for it.

Actually the freeloaders are people like Frederick who claim not to need insurance and shouldn't be forced to buy it.   It's the very people who are against ObamaCare because the fact is they were very happy paying $0 into the system and getting substandard, inappropriate care for free. 
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« Reply #19 on: August 09, 2017, 02:54:02 am »

Adam, we want HSAs. We don't want Obamacare. That's it. It's simple.
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