Is asking a person out on a date who has already said no again sexual harassment
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« on: October 18, 2017, 02:57:18 am »

This is a question that totally perplexes me.

I've talked with many a millennial who are fervent that no is no and you must move on and never ask again. The history of literature and film have established a long-running trope that pusuing someone could be the start of a long-lasting romance.

Where do you stand?

Here's an article that brought the question up.

http://variety.com/2017/tv/news/bob-weinstein-sexual-harassment-1202592165/
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« Reply #1 on: October 18, 2017, 05:26:47 am »

If your argument is that a long-standing trope of literature means a behaviour is acceptable...

There's also a long-running trope in literature and film that someone will fall in love with you if you rape them. (Part of the definition of Bodice Ripper romance and normative in Uke/Seme YAOI.)
Another involves falling in love with a kidnapper/man who keeps her hostage. (Beauty and the Beast)
Another involves falling in love with someone who is physically or mentally abusive. (Taming of the Shrew.)

I'm in support of the idea that it's better to try to date someone who is interested in you rather than someone who is not.
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« Reply #2 on: October 18, 2017, 06:01:37 am »

I think its all about how respectful We are at doing this.
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« Reply #3 on: October 18, 2017, 09:54:11 am »

Well, under feminism, it's rape if you didn't get the woman's permission to speak to her in the first place.   

Absolutely everything is rape according to millennials, especially those on college campuses.   

Absolutely everything is demonized by millennials.   
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« Reply #4 on: October 18, 2017, 10:30:46 am »

This is a question that totally perplexes me.

I've talked with many a millennial who are fervent that no is no and you must move on and never ask again. The history of literature and film have established a long-running trope that pusuing someone could be the start of a long-lasting romance.

Where do you stand?

Here's an article that brought the question up.

http://variety.com/2017/tv/news/bob-weinstein-sexual-harassment-1202592165/

How about the case I have referred to where a cop was set up on a date with the sister of someone that worked at city hall... he didn't like her.. she had a crush on him.  She wouldn't stop pursuing a relationship.. the cop told his crazy sister.. and his crazy sister murdered the woman who was seeking romance?   If the cop and his sister were not cops, they would probably be in prison now.  Because they are cops, nothing was done... at least yet.  It was over 20 years ago.  Karma has a way of punishing people though.  The cop's sister is hated by everyone and has no friends that I'm aware of.. the cop has an incurable disease which causes his intestines to digest themselves as if they were digesting food.. and he's lost a LOT of weight, especially muscle, is mostly bald, and what hair he has left is gray.. and he's not that old.  He looks at least 20 years older than his actual age.  I see him in stores or a restaurant about once or twice a year.. and he always looks very unhappy and unhealthy.. I wonder what other terrible things that cop and his sister have done.  I know the cop used to blackmail people into posing sexually for him and filming them in exchange for allowing them to commit crimes in the small beach community he used to work.  That must have ended once he was transferred to the county police. 

Cops are often horrible people, or cover up for other cops who are horrible people.. making them horrible by proxy.   By the way, cops tend to retire early because their past baggage and skeletons in their closets and guilt catch up to them. 
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« Reply #5 on: October 20, 2017, 05:06:41 pm »

If your argument is that a long-standing trope of literature means a behaviour is acceptable...

There's also a long-running trope in literature and film that someone will fall in love with you if you rape them. (Part of the definition of Bodice Ripper romance and normative in Uke/Seme YAOI.)
Another involves falling in love with a kidnapper/man who keeps her hostage. (Beauty and the Beast)
Another involves falling in love with someone who is physically or mentally abusive. (Taming of the Shrew.)

I'm in support of the idea that it's better to try to date someone who is interested in you rather than someone who is not.

It's interesting to me that you chose YAOI. Did you know that almost all YAOI is written by women? There's a subgenre called SHOTA in which elementary school-aged children get into sexual relationships with adults (or peers). There's another niche genre dealing with infants. The lioness's share is, you guessed it, written by women.

Think about that for a second.

Mom's are writing love stories and/or rape scenarios involving children.

The overwhelming majority of this kind of fiction is the more mainstream YAOI, or Boy's Love. If you pay attention to it you'll see it's very heteronormative (because it's written by women for women).

Honestly, I would love to do a Ph.D. on the why but my point in bringing this up is that YAOI happens in a foreign culture. The other examples all happened across time in, what is essentially, a foreign culture.

I love dissecting literature and film but saying Beauty & The Beast represents rape culture, or worse, Stockholms's Syndrom is to put a political spin on a time and culture we can know nothing about. What I'm saying is a little different.

The Troubadours shot time's romantic arrow, which follows a direct path through Shakespear and your bodice rippers to today. Using Queer Theory and Intersectionalism is a fun intellectual exercise but it shouldn't inform politics and policy, should it? Art imitates life imitates art; not the art critic informs art to inform life to inform the critic.

What's missing in your idea is serendipity. You're essentially saying there's a code so that no one ever feels uncomfortable and everyone feels respected. One rejection means a lifetime ban. But life is risk! Without it there are no serenades, no awkward love letters, no acknowledgment that it's okay to obsess on a crush. I see this tendency as a move towards repression which sets us on target for a new Victorian Age with its very seedy underbelly of all the things we're not supposed to do.
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« Reply #6 on: October 21, 2017, 12:26:55 am »

If your argument is that a long-standing trope of literature means a behaviour is acceptable...

There's also a long-running trope in literature and film that someone will fall in love with you if you rape them. (Part of the definition of Bodice Ripper romance and normative in Uke/Seme YAOI.)
Another involves falling in love with a kidnapper/man who keeps her hostage. (Beauty and the Beast)
Another involves falling in love with someone who is physically or mentally abusive. (Taming of the Shrew.)

I'm in support of the idea that it's better to try to date someone who is interested in you rather than someone who is not.

It's interesting to me that you chose YAOI. Did you know that almost all YAOI is written by women? There's a subgenre called SHOTA in which elementary school-aged children get into sexual relationships with adults (or peers). There's another niche genre dealing with infants. The lioness's share is, you guessed it, written by women.

Think about that for a second.

Mom's are writing love stories and/or rape scenarios involving children.

The overwhelming majority of this kind of fiction is the more mainstream YAOI, or Boy's Love. If you pay attention to it you'll see it's very heteronormative (because it's written by women for women).

Honestly, I would love to do a Ph.D. on the why but my point in bringing this up is that YAOI happens in a foreign culture. The other examples all happened across time in, what is essentially, a foreign culture.

I love dissecting literature and film but saying Beauty & The Beast represents rape culture, or worse, Stockholms's Syndrom is to put a political spin on a time and culture we can know nothing about. What I'm saying is a little different.

The Troubadours shot time's romantic arrow, which follows a direct path through Shakespear and your bodice rippers to today. Using Queer Theory and Intersectionalism is a fun intellectual exercise but it shouldn't inform politics and policy, should it? Art imitates life imitates art; not the art critic informs art to inform life to inform the critic.

What's missing in your idea is serendipity. You're essentially saying there's a code so that no one ever feels uncomfortable and everyone feels respected. One rejection means a lifetime ban. But life is risk! Without it there are no serenades, no awkward love letters, no acknowledgment that it's okay to obsess on a crush. I see this tendency as a move towards repression which sets us on target for a new Victorian Age with its very seedy underbelly of all the things we're not supposed to do.

The saga of Craig & Tweek covers this. 
https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=craig+tweek+yaoi&FORM=HDRSC2

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tweek_x_Craig

and they also continue this in the new Southpark game  "Fractured But Whole"   (butt hole)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ieAfO1DU_UA
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« Reply #7 on: October 21, 2017, 05:20:39 am »

What difference does it make that YAOI, Bodice Rippers, Slash, or M/M are predominately written by women?  They still romanticize Non-Consent.
(And there have been plenty of research papers on why women fantasize about gay relationships; as well as papers on why women romanticize non-consent.)
This doesn't mean that they depict behaviours that are acceptable in real life.
Granted, the question "If you ask someone out on a date and they say no" doesn't indicate WHY they said no.  If someone says, "I'm busy that day can we reschedule" that's different from "I'd rather stay just friends."
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« Reply #8 on: October 21, 2017, 06:30:17 am »

What difference does it make that YAOI, Bodice Rippers, Slash, or M/M are predominately written by women?  They still romanticize Non-Consent.
(And there have been plenty of research papers on why women fantasize about gay relationships; as well as papers on why women romanticize non-consent.)
This doesn't mean that they depict behaviours that are acceptable in real life.
Granted, the question "If you ask someone out on a date and they say no" doesn't indicate WHY they said no.  If someone says, "I'm busy that day can we reschedule" that's different from "I'd rather stay just friends."

Your comment reminded me of something I heard a man say in an office.  "I spent $50 on my date last night.. and didn't even get a blowjob!"    But then what happens is the woman has a few drinks, gives a blowjob, and the next day files sexual assault charges for getting her drunk and sexually assaulting her.  Or.. having sex, and not getting a phone call later, and rape charges filed.  Glad I have no interest in wimmen!   
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« Reply #9 on: October 21, 2017, 11:01:39 am »

What difference does it make that YAOI, Bodice Rippers, Slash, or M/M are predominately written by women?  They still romanticize Non-Consent.
(And there have been plenty of research papers on why women fantasize about gay relationships; as well as papers on why women romanticize non-consent.)
This doesn't mean that they depict behaviours that are acceptable in real life.
Granted, the question "If you ask someone out on a date and they say no" doesn't indicate WHY they said no.  If someone says, "I'm busy that day can we reschedule" that's different from "I'd rather stay just friends."

Context is everything, John.

The fiction you're using to justify your argument was written at a time when consent meant something very different. If that is to be your justification then you can make a ridiculous argument about Greeks being gay to push for LGBT cultural acceptance: What it meant then is not what it meant now. If you think it does then you've just empowered the Christian Right.

Japanese women have a long history of no meaning yes which is engrained in the language itself. Male dominance part of the appeal in Yaoi. Kabedon (Google it) has been raised the level of an ideal here but it's seen as sexual violence in the west, which is to say, context, culture, and time matters bigly

The question isn't rape, the question is whether repeatedly asking someone out is harassment. Interestingly, I brought this up at a group dinner yesterday. The white men at the table thought asking a woman out more than once was harassment but no one else did to varying degrees of confidence in their answers. That white men felt this way might have to do with what Fred alluded to about men being falsely accused of rape or harassment. 

Keeping with the original question, is serenading a woman outside her window harassment? How about if they just broke up and he's trying to apologize? How about sending a love letter to someone you're interested in but never asked out? How about if you asked them out and they said no and you send a poem expressing your feelings? All these things a part of culture. They are benign until you're told they're not and that is where the real question is. 

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« Reply #10 on: October 21, 2017, 10:44:48 pm »

I feel you're misrepresenting my argument.

Your original argument was that there is a long history in literature giving positive images of asking a person out after they've said 'no' which implies it's permissable.  I replied that there's a long history in literature of things that we would recognize as rape being romanticized.

Now you say, I should use examples from the past to justify present behaviour.  Which you were doing.

I hate to break it to you.  YAOI, Bodice-Rippers, and M/M are still being written.
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« Reply #11 on: October 22, 2017, 12:17:53 am »

I've been thinking a lot about this lately and I really think that this isn't going to end well for women.  Men are pigs and men want sex.  We have all had met "straight" men and I'm sure all of us have had sex with a few of them.  If I was a straight guy I would be terrified to  even look at a woman these days!  It's a lot easier for them to just have sex with other dudes.
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« Reply #12 on: October 22, 2017, 12:40:46 am »

I've been thinking a lot about this lately and I really think that this isn't going to end well for women.  Men are pigs and men want sex.  We have all had met "straight" men and I'm sure all of us have had sex with a few of them.  If I was a straight guy I would be terrified to  even look at a woman these days!  It's a lot easier for them to just have sex with other dudes.

That reminds me of something from last night...   I was watching a guy on Chaturbate.. and he was adamant that he is 100% straight.  He was jacking off while watching straight porn.  I wondered how straight he was when after he came, he ate his load for 200 tokens ($10).    I then did a bit of internet research on him, found his real name, life history, email, etc.  One comment he made on a blog is that he is completely straight, won't top or bottom a guy..  BUT he will let a guy suck his cock especially if they swallow!   Hmm.. maybe not so straight.  I am pretty sure he also lives with a sugar daddy. 
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« Reply #13 on: October 22, 2017, 12:44:14 am »

I feel you're misrepresenting my argument.

Your original argument was that there is a long history in literature giving positive images of asking a person out after they've said 'no' which implies it's permissable.  I replied that there's a long history in literature of things that we would recognize as rape being romanticized.

Now you say, I should use examples from the past to justify present behaviour.  Which you were doing.

I hate to break it to you.  YAOI, Bodice-Rippers, and M/M are still being written.

You and I are miscommunicating then.

What I've been trying to say, repeatedly, is that you can't go back in time and lense a story like Beauty & The Beast as supporting rape culture. No. It doesn't work. Those stories were written in a different time which had a different culture from today so if your argument is that there is a long unbroken line of rape culture stretching back millennia, I'm calling bullshit and hypocrisy: If you go that route then the Chrisitan Right and Constitutional Originalists are correct, I don't believe you think that.

I brought up Yaoi because, unless you're fluent in Japanese as I am (20+ year veteran here), then you're pulling the biggest act of white privilege there is and telling another culture what their stories mean.

(To be clear, I don't support the idea of White Privilege but they go hand in hand with reinterpreting the past.)

What I've been saying is that there is an unbroken line from the Troubadours forward that has determined what these stories mean, so that when Disney reimagines B&tB it is connected to the intent of the source material, not the revisionists.

Given all that, I do enjoy cultural critiques using Feminism and Post-Colonial theories but they can not be used to rewrite history, just give an alternative vision to help us think -- that's useful. The problem is that cultural critiques are trying to write legally binding laws.
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« Reply #14 on: October 22, 2017, 12:50:49 am »

I've been thinking a lot about this lately and I really think that this isn't going to end well for women.  Men are pigs and men want sex.  We have all had met "straight" men and I'm sure all of us have had sex with a few of them.  If I was a straight guy I would be terrified to  even look at a woman these days!  It's a lot easier for them to just have sex with other dudes.

That reminds me of something from last night...   I was watching a guy on Chaturbate.. and he was adamant that he is 100% straight.  He was jacking off while watching straight porn.  I wondered how straight he was when after he came, he ate his load for 200 tokens ($10).    I then did a bit of internet research on him, found his real name, life history, email, etc.  One comment he made on a blog is that he is completely straight, won't top or bottom a guy..  BUT he will let a guy suck his cock especially if they swallow!   Hmm.. maybe not so straight.  I am pretty sure he also lives with a sugar daddy. 

@Adam, it's happening more and more (if the Internet is to be believed).

@Fred, why do we, as a culture, need to peg someone as gay/bi because they had some form of sex with a person of the same gender? It's political, an intent to normalize LGB people.

I love vegan food, raw vegan food, and cook a lot of vegetarians but I'm in no way a vegetarian. I simply have broad tastes. Straight people would have fewer hangups if they weren't pegged as closeted after a bj.
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« Reply #15 on: October 22, 2017, 01:05:14 am »

I've been thinking a lot about this lately and I really think that this isn't going to end well for women.  Men are pigs and men want sex.  We have all had met "straight" men and I'm sure all of us have had sex with a few of them.  If I was a straight guy I would be terrified to  even look at a woman these days!  It's a lot easier for them to just have sex with other dudes.

That reminds me of something from last night...   I was watching a guy on Chaturbate.. and he was adamant that he is 100% straight.  He was jacking off while watching straight porn.  I wondered how straight he was when after he came, he ate his load for 200 tokens ($10).    I then did a bit of internet research on him, found his real name, life history, email, etc.  One comment he made on a blog is that he is completely straight, won't top or bottom a guy..  BUT he will let a guy suck his cock especially if they swallow!   Hmm.. maybe not so straight.  I am pretty sure he also lives with a sugar daddy. 

@Adam, it's happening more and more (if the Internet is to be believed).

@Fred, why do we, as a culture, need to peg someone as gay/bi because they had some form of sex with a person of the same gender? It's political, an intent to normalize LGB people.

I love vegan food, raw vegan food, and cook a lot of vegetarians but I'm in no way a vegetarian. I simply have broad tastes. Straight people would have fewer hangups if they weren't pegged as closeted after a bj.

I wasn't trying to label him.  I know that at his age, guys tend to SAY they are straight for various reasons including that they have not yet learned about women.  Many of them probably imagine that they will have a wife and children some day.  This guy kept insisting he was straight.  He interested me because he is 6'4, has a genuine 10" cock, and his ass was magnificent.   I was researching him out of curiousity to see if he had any done any porn... and he has.. at least 2 which I should have by tomorrow.  Then there is another CB performer.. "boyalwayshorny"   who insists he is straight.. but in his shows he not only tops and bottoms for guys.. he loves it.  There are videos of him on his back getting fucked hard.. with him moaning like crazy.. bucking like a bronco.. and shooting half a dozen huge streams of cum all over the place and eating half of it.  I wish there were more straight guys like that.  He is also a champion cock sucker. 
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« Reply #16 on: October 22, 2017, 02:12:46 am »

I've been thinking a lot about this lately and I really think that this isn't going to end well for women.  Men are pigs and men want sex.  We have all had met "straight" men and I'm sure all of us have had sex with a few of them.  If I was a straight guy I would be terrified to  even look at a woman these days!  It's a lot easier for them to just have sex with other dudes.

That reminds me of something from last night...   I was watching a guy on Chaturbate.. and he was adamant that he is 100% straight.  He was jacking off while watching straight porn.  I wondered how straight he was when after he came, he ate his load for 200 tokens ($10).    I then did a bit of internet research on him, found his real name, life history, email, etc.  One comment he made on a blog is that he is completely straight, won't top or bottom a guy..  BUT he will let a guy suck his cock especially if they swallow!   Hmm.. maybe not so straight.  I am pretty sure he also lives with a sugar daddy. 

@Adam, it's happening more and more (if the Internet is to be believed).

@Fred, why do we, as a culture, need to peg someone as gay/bi because they had some form of sex with a person of the same gender? It's political, an intent to normalize LGB people.

I love vegan food, raw vegan food, and cook a lot of vegetarians but I'm in no way a vegetarian. I simply have broad tastes. Straight people would have fewer hangups if they weren't pegged as closeted after a bj.

I have also read some studies that have suggested that porn is keeping men from getting married.

I think of all the stuff that straight guys  have to go through just to get laid.  They are figuring out that it's much easier to just go on Grindr.  When you couple that with the idea that even talking to a woman can ruin you life why would anyone choose to have sex with a woman?
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« Reply #17 on: October 22, 2017, 02:50:10 am »

I've been thinking a lot about this lately and I really think that this isn't going to end well for women.  Men are pigs and men want sex.  We have all had met "straight" men and I'm sure all of us have had sex with a few of them.  If I was a straight guy I would be terrified to  even look at a woman these days!  It's a lot easier for them to just have sex with other dudes.

That reminds me of something from last night...   I was watching a guy on Chaturbate.. and he was adamant that he is 100% straight.  He was jacking off while watching straight porn.  I wondered how straight he was when after he came, he ate his load for 200 tokens ($10).    I then did a bit of internet research on him, found his real name, life history, email, etc.  One comment he made on a blog is that he is completely straight, won't top or bottom a guy..  BUT he will let a guy suck his cock especially if they swallow!   Hmm.. maybe not so straight.  I am pretty sure he also lives with a sugar daddy. 

@Adam, it's happening more and more (if the Internet is to be believed).

@Fred, why do we, as a culture, need to peg someone as gay/bi because they had some form of sex with a person of the same gender? It's political, an intent to normalize LGB people.

I love vegan food, raw vegan food, and cook a lot of vegetarians but I'm in no way a vegetarian. I simply have broad tastes. Straight people would have fewer hangups if they weren't pegged as closeted after a bj.

I have also read some studies that have suggested that porn is keeping men from getting married.

I think of all the stuff that straight guys  have to go through just to get laid.  They are figuring out that it's much easier to just go on Grindr.  When you couple that with the idea that even talking to a woman can ruin you life why would anyone choose to have sex with a woman?

Other than your comments about Trump, you are posting well. 
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« Reply #18 on: October 22, 2017, 09:39:34 am »

Other than your comments about Trump, you are posting well. 

Why are you grading people!?!  Spank

Get that porn and go take of some stress.
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« Reply #19 on: October 22, 2017, 11:27:55 am »

Other than your comments about Trump, you are posting well. 

Why are you grading people!?!  Spank

Get that porn and go take of some stress.

I was trying to encourage him to post more messages that made sense and were rational.   His posts tend to be good EXCEPT for his vitriolic comments about Trump.    From other posts he made later on.. I think my praise fell on deaf ears.
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