What do you see as China's place in the world -- 3 hour speech
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« on: October 18, 2017, 04:05:23 pm »

I will eventually find a translation of the whole thing to sit back and watch but for now, there are the abridged versions released in the press.

In short, China is laying out a plan for it to be the next global leader.

There are good arguments to be made in that the West has dropped the ball in so many ways, including, but not limited to the Islamification of Europe, the loss of a clear Western ideology, the failures of capitalism, subcultures focused on victimhood.

In our lifetimes China has raised it's people out of poverty on an unprecedented scale. China has a clear demarcation of where it begins and the rest of the world starts. It is the rising star, so isn't it time for it to step into the spotlight?

Thoughts?

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-10-18/xi-jinping-had-something-for-everyone-but-little-detail/9063882
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« Reply #1 on: October 18, 2017, 06:28:58 pm »

There are a lot of different issues to unpack.

Hard power - previous and current world powers had political and military presence on several continents.  (The British Empire had colonies on each of the 6 inhabited continents.  The Soviet Union had client states in 4 continents.)  China is enormous but has little military presence outside of its own borders.

Language - English, Spanish, Russian, and French are widely spoken as second languages.  Chinese is incredibly difficult and has an even more inaccessible written form.  (Pinyin is improving the facility to use Mandarin.  A tendency toward polysyllabic structures is also helping.)

Culture - Other than Chinese food - Chinese culture is seen as quaint and ethnic.  Hollywood is as valuable to maintaining American dominance as the military.

Political leadership - the USA is slipping as a political heavyweight.  Some 50 years ago most emerging nations where using the American Declaration of Independence as a template for their own constitutions.  Now countries are turning toward the Commonwealth version that includes Human Rights and Multiculturalism.  Maoism does not have many adherents.

China should have/will have a more prominent role in the world on the basis of the size, wealth, and population of the country.  It's not going to be the same powerhouse that the British Empire used to be or that the USA is still hanging on to.
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« Reply #2 on: October 18, 2017, 07:43:06 pm »

I will eventually find a translation of the whole thing to sit back and watch but for now, there are the abridged versions released in the press.

In short, China is laying out a plan for it to be the next global leader.

There are good arguments to be made in that the West has dropped the ball in so many ways, including, but not limited to the Islamification of Europe, the loss of a clear Western ideology, the failures of capitalism, subcultures focused on victimhood.

In our lifetimes China has raised it's people out of poverty on an unprecedented scale. China has a clear demarcation of where it begins and the rest of the world starts. It is the rising star, so isn't it time for it to step into the spotlight?

Thoughts?

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-10-18/xi-jinping-had-something-for-everyone-but-little-detail/9063882

I think this is the full text of the speech in the link below.   The fundamental problem with China's goals is that to achieve those goals requires a dictatorship of communism.  It's only been 41 years since the demise of that monster Mao Ets Dung.  Why that pig is still revered in China is perplexing.  Mao's basic scheme was to murder millions of people who opposed him or even COULD have opposed him, and replace them with young people he could control.  Living under communism would be almost as bad as having Hillary Clinton as president.  Anybody who enjoys working 12 hours per day on a mind numbing assembly line would love communism.

I have a question about China and it's manufacturing.. why doesn't China manufacture automobiles or aircraft.. or write their own computer software? 

https://www.ncuscr.org/content/full-text-president-xi-jinpings-speech
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« Reply #3 on: October 20, 2017, 03:43:44 am »



I think this is the full text of the speech in the link below.   The fundamental problem with China's goals is that to achieve those goals requires a dictatorship of communism.  It's only been 41 years since the demise of that monster Mao Ets Dung.  Why that pig is still revered in China is perplexing.  Mao's basic scheme was to murder millions of people who opposed him or even COULD have opposed him, and replace them with young people he could control.  Living under communism would be almost as bad as having Hillary Clinton as president.  Anybody who enjoys working 12 hours per day on a mind numbing assembly line would love communism.

I have a question about China and it's manufacturing.. why doesn't China manufacture automobiles or aircraft.. or write their own computer software? 

https://www.ncuscr.org/content/full-text-president-xi-jinpings-speech

The link is to a speech he made to the US, not the party speech. It'll take a while for someone to translate all 3.5 hours.

China is communist in name only. Actually, it was Gorbachev who said that Japan has been the only communist country on the planet. That might have been true of 80's/90's Japan.

China isn't what you think. You should go visit or learn about the culture. It's a way of thinking that can't be put into Google translate. To understand Chinese (Asian) thinking, you have to take the time to learn a new perspective. After that, you can answer those questions.

If you're interested, I can get you the name of an accessible sociological comparison of western vs Asian thinking as a primer. I've forgotten the title off hand.

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« Reply #4 on: October 20, 2017, 04:20:13 am »



I think this is the full text of the speech in the link below.   The fundamental problem with China's goals is that to achieve those goals requires a dictatorship of communism.  It's only been 41 years since the demise of that monster Mao Ets Dung.  Why that pig is still revered in China is perplexing.  Mao's basic scheme was to murder millions of people who opposed him or even COULD have opposed him, and replace them with young people he could control.  Living under communism would be almost as bad as having Hillary Clinton as president.  Anybody who enjoys working 12 hours per day on a mind numbing assembly line would love communism.

I have a question about China and it's manufacturing.. why doesn't China manufacture automobiles or aircraft.. or write their own computer software? 

https://www.ncuscr.org/content/full-text-president-xi-jinpings-speech

The link is to a speech he made to the US, not the party speech. It'll take a while for someone to translate all 3.5 hours.

China is communist in name only. Actually, it was Gorbachev who said that Japan has been the only communist country on the planet. That might have been true of 80's/90's Japan.

China isn't what you think. You should go visit or learn about the culture. It's a way of thinking that can't be put into Google translate. To understand Chinese (Asian) thinking, you have to take the time to learn a new perspective. After that, you can answer those questions.

If you're interested, I can get you the name of an accessible sociological comparison of western vs Asian thinking as a primer. I've forgotten the title off hand.



I never heard of Japan referred to as being communist.. imperialist, but not communist.  I am not aware that Japan ever was state run.. although the people of Japan may have voluntarily supported the state - they were not forced to. 
I would like to know more about Japan, but I know enough about China to not like nor trust them. 
One thing to be wary of when examining history is who wrote the history and when.  Anything written under government control or during a war is likely to be grossly inaccurate and misleading. 
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« Reply #5 on: October 20, 2017, 07:51:58 am »


I never heard of Japan referred to as being communist.. imperialist, but not communist.  I am not aware that Japan ever was state run.. although the people of Japan may have voluntarily supported the state - they were not forced to. 
I would like to know more about Japan, but I know enough about China to not like nor trust them. 
One thing to be wary of when examining history is who wrote the history and when.  Anything written under government control or during a war is likely to be grossly inaccurate and misleading. 

There has never been a truly communist country, Fred, just as there's never been a true democracy. We've seen different species of both. Gorbachev went as far to say that the USSR wasn't even run under a form of communism but something else, which is why when he was asked about a successful communist country he pointed out Japan.

From the 70's till the late 90's the state did have very firm control and almost everyone benefitted. That's been changing since the bubble burst. The point Gorbachev was making isn't that Japan was a literal communist country; rather, it was an ironic statement and self-effacement. 

As for China, if you think you know enough, then you're as guilty as any snowflake who knows x, y, and z and insist the world be that way and no other. Be more like Socrates, my friend.
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« Reply #6 on: October 20, 2017, 08:45:22 am »


I never heard of Japan referred to as being communist.. imperialist, but not communist.  I am not aware that Japan ever was state run.. although the people of Japan may have voluntarily supported the state - they were not forced to. 
I would like to know more about Japan, but I know enough about China to not like nor trust them. 
One thing to be wary of when examining history is who wrote the history and when.  Anything written under government control or during a war is likely to be grossly inaccurate and misleading. 

There has never been a truly communist country, Fred, just as there's never been a true democracy. We've seen different species of both. Gorbachev went as far to say that the USSR wasn't even run under a form of communism but something else, which is why when he was asked about a successful communist country he pointed out Japan.

From the 70's till the late 90's the state did have very firm control and almost everyone benefitted. That's been changing since the bubble burst. The point Gorbachev was making isn't that Japan was a literal communist country; rather, it was an ironic statement and self-effacement. 

As for China, if you think you know enough, then you're as guilty as any snowflake who knows x, y, and z and insist the world be that way and no other. Be more like Socrates, my friend.

I know enough about Chinese people and how despicable they can be.. I could post thousands of photo and video examples.  One of their beliefs is that meat tastes better if the animal suffered when slaughtered.  I suppose the theory is that adrenaline is released or something.  Another dodgy issue is that of wiping out every last rhino on the planet so they can grind up the horns to get a hard pecker.. or whatever the hell they do with the tiny gall bladders that they harvest from the last remaining bears.. or their annual festival of gobbling up dogs and cats.  The Japanese people are said to have  "militaristic" tendencies - which is why they have decided to avoid getting involved in anything that might lead to war.  The Chinese have a tendency to be "sadistic" and celebrate pain and degradation. I know that not all of them do, but as a country, they tolerate it.. so, don't expect me to be taking a holiday to China anytime this millennium. 

Japan is much like the "Vulcans" on Star Trek.  They are very disciplined, logical, and peaceful.. but when their discipline fails.. I pity anybody who is their enemy.  In fact, that is another reason why Trump has to STOP North Korea.. before the Japanese decide they need to have nukes of their own.  I guarantee that the Japanese could produce superior nukes, very quickly, in great numbers, and would use them.  Plus.. they have Godzilla and Mothra on their side!
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« Reply #7 on: October 20, 2017, 10:26:46 am »


I know enough about Chinese people and how despicable they can be.. I could post thousands of photo and video examples.  One of their beliefs is that meat tastes better if the animal suffered when slaughtered.  I suppose the theory is that adrenaline is released or something.  Another dodgy issue is that of wiping out every last rhino on the planet so they can grind up the horns to get a hard pecker.. or whatever the hell they do with the tiny gall bladders that they harvest from the last remaining bears.. or their annual festival of gobbling up dogs and cats.  The Japanese people are said to have  "militaristic" tendencies - which is why they have decided to avoid getting involved in anything that might lead to war.  The Chinese have a tendency to be "sadistic" and celebrate pain and degradation. I know that not all of them do, but as a country, they tolerate it.. so, don't expect me to be taking a holiday to China anytime this millennium.  

Japan is much like the "Vulcans" on Star Trek.  They are very disciplined, logical, and peaceful.. but when their discipline fails.. I pity anybody who is their enemy.  In fact, that is another reason why Trump has to STOP North Korea.. before the Japanese decide they need to have nukes of their own.  I guarantee that the Japanese could produce superior nukes, very quickly, in great numbers, and would use them.  Plus.. they have Godzilla and Mothra on their side!


Well, I've been in Japan twenty plus years. Your idea that the Japanese are like Vulcans is rooted in Western media's portrayal of the Japanese. Nothing could be further from the truth. What translators cannot get right is the language:

Japanese has three distinct levels (not to mention all the variations through dialects and time), effectively three different languages. There's no way to correctly translate it. At best you get strange utterances with honor, respectfully, let's tacked on. Then there's the cultural differences. Did you know a Japanese pregnancy takes exactly ten months and ten days? That's not because human gestation differs in Asia, it's because time is counted differently.

If you don't want to like China, that's your choice but rooting your decision in stereotypes is, again, no different than modern snowflakes or the irrationality of the Christian right and what they know about homosexuality with all the pictures and YouTube videos they could show to back up their point.

The variety on this planet cannot be lensed through western thinking without distorting it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WANNqr-vcx0
« Last Edit: October 20, 2017, 10:31:58 am by (Hidden) » Logged


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« Reply #8 on: October 20, 2017, 11:33:27 am »


I know enough about Chinese people and how despicable they can be.. I could post thousands of photo and video examples.  One of their beliefs is that meat tastes better if the animal suffered when slaughtered.  I suppose the theory is that adrenaline is released or something.  Another dodgy issue is that of wiping out every last rhino on the planet so they can grind up the horns to get a hard pecker.. or whatever the hell they do with the tiny gall bladders that they harvest from the last remaining bears.. or their annual festival of gobbling up dogs and cats.  The Japanese people are said to have  "militaristic" tendencies - which is why they have decided to avoid getting involved in anything that might lead to war.  The Chinese have a tendency to be "sadistic" and celebrate pain and degradation. I know that not all of them do, but as a country, they tolerate it.. so, don't expect me to be taking a holiday to China anytime this millennium.  

Japan is much like the "Vulcans" on Star Trek.  They are very disciplined, logical, and peaceful.. but when their discipline fails.. I pity anybody who is their enemy.  In fact, that is another reason why Trump has to STOP North Korea.. before the Japanese decide they need to have nukes of their own.  I guarantee that the Japanese could produce superior nukes, very quickly, in great numbers, and would use them.  Plus.. they have Godzilla and Mothra on their side!


Well, I've been in Japan twenty plus years. Your idea that the Japanese are like Vulcans is rooted in Western media's portrayal of the Japanese. Nothing could be further from the truth. What translators cannot get right is the language:

Japanese has three distinct levels (not to mention all the variations through dialects and time), effectively three different languages. There's no way to correctly translate it. At best you get strange utterances with honor, respectfully, let's tacked on. Then there's the cultural differences. Did you know a Japanese pregnancy takes exactly ten months and ten days? That's not because human gestation differs in Asia, it's because time is counted differently.

If you don't want to like China, that's your choice but rooting your decision in stereotypes is, again, no different than modern snowflakes or the irrationality of the Christian right and what they know about homosexuality with all the pictures and YouTube videos they could show to back up their point.

The variety on this planet cannot be lensed through western thinking without distorting it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WANNqr-vcx0


I used to work with a guy from Taiwan, and 2 Chinese guys.  I used to drive the Chinese guys crazy because they were not sure if I could understand what they were saying when they were speaking Chinese.  I would act as if I knew..hehe.    The guy from Taiwan's father was a big shot general who was given a town in Taiwan as a gift for his military service.. but left very little to his son in his will  The guy from Taiwan said that the Japanese language is actually a simplified version of Chinese.  Is that right?    Also, I know there are 3 major versions of Chinese,   Mandarin, Cantonese, and Traditional. 
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« Reply #9 on: October 20, 2017, 02:40:08 pm »



I used to work with a guy from Taiwan, and 2 Chinese guys.  I used to drive the Chinese guys crazy because they were not sure if I could understand what they were saying when they were speaking Chinese.  I would act as if I knew..hehe.    The guy from Taiwan's father was a big shot general who was given a town in Taiwan as a gift for his military service.. but left very little to his son in his will  The guy from Taiwan said that the Japanese language is actually a simplified version of Chinese.  Is that right?    Also, I know there are 3 major versions of Chinese,   Mandarin, Cantonese, and Traditional. 


Your friend is talking about the writing system kanji, aka Chinese characters. But Japanese has four official scripts all used within any one document.

1. 漢字 the simplified Chinese characters
2. ひらがな (hiragana) the original phonetic script
3. カタカナ (katakana) another phonetic script used for words of a foreign origin
4. ROMAJI or the Roman script used together with katakana for foreign words or to add impact in ads or for touristy things (but romaji doesn't mean it's English or that the English words written/spoken mean the same thing. For example, naisu gai [nice guy] means handsome and if you read hate it's not at all what you think because you have to read it with the Japanese phonetics in mind).

(Now that I think about I guess you could add simple English as a fifth system but it wouldn't be literary, more a means to an end.)

Both Chinese and Japanese have kanji that are unique to their languages, too. When I've been through China and Taiwan I can generally get by with no problem by reading what's around me or writing what I want in the Japanese versions of the characters. Kanji are also a part of older Korean, so you'll see it when you're traveling there, too.

Chinese grammar is closer to English in structure. Japanese is similar to Korean.

Time to learn a language?  Grin

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