Isn't PROTESTING a VIOLATION of FREEDOM OF SPEECH?
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Author Topic: Isn't PROTESTING a VIOLATION of FREEDOM OF SPEECH?  (Read 152 times)
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« on: October 21, 2017, 06:44:15 am »

In large gatherings, such as Charlottesville, a group has to get a PERMIT to have an event.  No matter what the event is about, the people putting it on are allowed to do it because of "Freedom of Speech"

BUT!  It seems to me that people don't have the right to SUPRESS other people's Freedom of Speech by showing up to protest!  This would eliminate a whole lot of conflicts.  
Does FREEDOM OF SPEECH include the right to NOT HAVE FREEDOM OF SPEECH?

In short, I don't think Freedom of Speech gives people the right to PROTEST someone else's event.  
Here's an example... the Westboro Baptist church are famous for protesting the funerals of gay people and servicemen.   Do they have the right to protest the funerals?  I say NO!

also..
If someone is having a pro-choice rally, the pro-life people have no right to be there to protest the rally.
If someone is having a pro-life rally, the pro-choice people have no right to be there to protest the rally.

(I impressed MYSELF with my brilliant idea here!  Let's all click on the Blue Heart to the left.. I AGREE!)
« Last Edit: October 21, 2017, 07:03:29 am by (Hidden) » Logged
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« Reply #1 on: October 21, 2017, 11:14:48 am »

I think your wording has conflated two issues: protest and free speech.

Both the protest and the counter protest are free speech. Freedom of speech does not assume freedom from consequence.

Apply this to the NFL. Players take a knee: Protest. Viewers voice their opinion: Counter protest. Players and their supporters say that the counter-protesters are trying to take away the players free speech while ignoring that the counter-protesters are also engaging in free speech. (queue media bias machine)

Where this becomes contentious is when a person protests/counter-protests at work or by participating appears to be representing the organization they work for/belong to. That's why Trump is getting a lot of flack for using his free speech: People are assuming the office of the President has taken a side and not the man in office.

In the end, the Supreme Court already ruled that the Westborough Baptist Church has a right to protest/counter-protest and thought I despise their message and means, I'm glad that right was upheald.

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« Reply #2 on: October 21, 2017, 12:37:13 pm »

NO!!!!!   Protesting is a protected form of speech.

Protesting only becomes a violation when they get violent/destructive or prevent others from exercising their right to free speech. 
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« Reply #3 on: October 21, 2017, 07:00:03 pm »

NO!!!!!   Protesting is a protected form of speech.

Protesting only becomes a violation when they get violent/destructive or prevent others from exercising their right to free speech. 

I would say that if one group is having a gathering.. and an opposing group shows up screaming chants and waving signs.. that second group is preventing the first group from exercising their right to free speech.
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« Reply #4 on: October 21, 2017, 09:07:46 pm »

If the 1st group is inside and the 2nd group is outside, not being violent then there is no issue.

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« Reply #5 on: October 22, 2017, 12:54:58 am »

If the 1st group is inside and the 2nd group is outside, not being violent then there is no issue.



In THAT case, that is fine... however.. when does that case ever occur?  There are invariably shouting matches,sticks & stones.. and bottles and bats, cars vandalized, roads blocked, etc.    In that Charlottesville fiasco, some right wing people were having a legitimate rally with a permit, in reaction to several monuments and statues being vandalized, destroyed, and removed.  The left wing people showed up to confront them.. and they came with bats, bars, and body armor.. and blocked off the streets.  There is video proving that the man who accelerated into a blocked off street had the back of his car being swung at with a bat enough to put a dent in it before he accelerated.  That will come out clearly in his trial.
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« Reply #6 on: October 22, 2017, 12:45:49 pm »

I agree with you about the violence and destruction in "protests".    I was just saying that NOT ALL anti whatever protests are bad.  


Obama and Co are responsible for most of the mess we are in.   They engaged in blatant race baiting, demonizing their enemies and insane identity politics.
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« Reply #7 on: October 22, 2017, 01:16:25 pm »

Obama and Co are responsible for most of the mess we are in.   They engaged in blatant race baiting, demonizing their enemies and insane identity politics.

Here I have to disagree -- strongly. 

People are shifting the blame for what they do and how they feel onto a scapegoat. In saying X baited Y, Y took the bait and is equally, if not more, responsible. If we accept and/or engage in demonizing others, in identity politics, then we are to blame. We all have to stop blaming people in positions of power for the messes we wind up in.



 
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« Reply #8 on: October 23, 2017, 02:52:13 am »

Obama and Co are responsible for most of the mess we are in.   They engaged in blatant race baiting, demonizing their enemies and insane identity politics.

Here I have to disagree -- strongly. 

People are shifting the blame for what they do and how they feel onto a scapegoat. In saying X baited Y, Y took the bait and is equally, if not more, responsible. If we accept and/or engage in demonizing others, in identity politics, then we are to blame. We all have to stop blaming people in positions of power for the messes we wind up in.



 

I thought that in Japan, when something goes wrong, the person in charge is expected to commit hari kari, resign, or at least take full responsibility for it. 
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« Reply #9 on: October 23, 2017, 03:26:58 am »


I thought that in Japan, when something goes wrong, the person in charge is expected to commit hari kari, resign, or at least take full responsibility for it. 

Up until the WWII, and a bit after as the mentality took a while to die, for example, when a newly built ship was being launched the manager of that project stood by with a ceremonial knife in tow. If the ship were to sink, he would commit ritual suicide.

It's important to understand how romanticised suicide was in those days to understand the why. 

In the modern era, when something goes wrong no one looks for a person to blame. People come together to fix the problem. Later, they look at the whole. It's never a question of X did it. It is the case that X was part of a team and A, B, C for some reason didn't catch said mistake and D, E, and F managers missed something, so how can we repair this. This is why Japanese quality is said to be high. (The person who directly causes a mistake will absolutely apologize, publically and often individually. In Japanese one never gives an excuse or explains why the mistake happened. That is seen as diffusing responsibility.)

On the state level, when a politician is caught in a scandal they step down. They accept responsibility for their actions and understand that they wear the face of the party. This is why there have been so many Prime Ministers in Japan over the past few decades. The opposition party recently tried to embroil Abe in a scandal and, in a rare case, Abe stood up and fought it, keeping his position in order to push his policies forward.


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« Reply #10 on: October 23, 2017, 04:13:00 am »


I thought that in Japan, when something goes wrong, the person in charge is expected to commit hari kari, resign, or at least take full responsibility for it. 

Up until the WWII, and a bit after as the mentality took a while to die, for example, when a newly built ship was being launched the manager of that project stood by with a ceremonial knife in tow. If the ship were to sink, he would commit ritual suicide.

It's important to understand how romanticised suicide was in those days to understand the why. 

In the modern era, when something goes wrong no one looks for a person to blame. People come together to fix the problem. Later, they look at the whole. It's never a question of X did it. It is the case that X was part of a team and A, B, C for some reason didn't catch said mistake and D, E, and F managers missed something, so how can we repair this. This is why Japanese quality is said to be high. (The person who directly causes a mistake will absolutely apologize, publically and often individually. In Japanese one never gives an excuse or explains why the mistake happened. That is seen as diffusing responsibility.)

On the state level, when a politician is caught in a scandal they step down. They accept responsibility for their actions and understand that they wear the face of the party. This is why there have been so many Prime Ministers in Japan over the past few decades. The opposition party recently tried to embroil Abe in a scandal and, in a rare case, Abe stood up and fought it, keeping his position in order to push his policies forward.

I'm no expert.. but my understanding is that Japan is a pretty good place now.. although their police are a bit harsh (just ask Paul McCartney).
China  is a land of hypocrisy.  China is fine to the OUTSIDE world.. but it's no fun being a citizen of China..   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SP_JSBVsL_s
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« Reply #11 on: October 23, 2017, 04:36:00 am »

I'm no expert.. but my understanding is that Japan is a pretty good place now.. although their police are a bit harsh (just ask Paul McCartney).
China  is a land of hypocrisy.  China is fine to the OUTSIDE world.. but it's no fun being a citizen of China..   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SP_JSBVsL_s

There is no redemption culture here. You make a mistake, you're done, especially when you're a celebrity as you have an influence on people.

McCartney was bused on marijuana possession. Good on Japan for keeping him out. Once you start making exceptions then everyone becomes an exception.

There's a famous duo named Chage and Asuka here. One was caught with some kind of stimulant drug. He lost everything. He will never make a comeback and he'll most certainly be spending more time in prison.

The most famous comedic duo in Japan, one member was caught sneaking into a high school to steal a girls uniform and was caught. It was discovered he'd been doing this successfully for years. He lost everything as well and I'm pretty sure is still in prison.

Celebrities have a responsibility as young people mirror them.

As to China's death penalty, America executes far too few. We have rookie numbers and should get them up to where China's are. There's too much garbage in jails and prisons that needs to be cleared up, so China's looking pretty good to me by way of your example.
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« Reply #12 on: October 23, 2017, 06:45:18 am »

I'm no expert.. but my understanding is that Japan is a pretty good place now.. although their police are a bit harsh (just ask Paul McCartney).
China  is a land of hypocrisy.  China is fine to the OUTSIDE world.. but it's no fun being a citizen of China..   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SP_JSBVsL_s

There is no redemption culture here. You make a mistake, you're done, especially when you're a celebrity as you have an influence on people.

McCartney was bused on marijuana possession. Good on Japan for keeping him out. Once you start making exceptions then everyone becomes an exception.

There's a famous duo named Chage and Asuka here. One was caught with some kind of stimulant drug. He lost everything. He will never make a comeback and he'll most certainly be spending more time in prison.

The most famous comedic duo in Japan, one member was caught sneaking into a high school to steal a girls uniform and was caught. It was discovered he'd been doing this successfully for years. He lost everything as well and I'm pretty sure is still in prison.

Celebrities have a responsibility as young people mirror them.

As to China's death penalty, America executes far too few. We have rookie numbers and should get them up to where China's are. There's too much garbage in jails and prisons that needs to be cleared up, so China's looking pretty good to me by way of your example.

I have another story about Japan and marijuana.  Roughly 30 years ago, singer Morten Harket of norwegian group a-ha was having a birthday party in Los Angeles (Morten was married at the time with a boy.. but he is bi and spent almost no time with his wife).  Anyway, Morten's boyfriend got nabbed in the airport in Japan with marijuana, resulting in Morten flying to Japan to bail him out for roughly $35,000 USD.  That was a bit embarrassing for Morten.  Years later, Morten got caught again, this time with the lead singer of Aqua named "Lene".  They got in a motorcycle accident in which Lene was riding on back.. exposing their affair.  That resulted in a very expensive divorce for Morten, and also being dumped by Lene who said Morten was too old for her. 

========
I am not a fan of executions for several reasons:
1.  It's FAR cheaper to keep someone in prison for life than to execute them
2.  The inmate will suffer being in prison, whereas dead people feel no pain nor remorse.
3.  If someone is thinking that they will be executed, then they will resort to doing anything to avoid being captured - including killing more people.
4. It is FAR too random.  The odds of someone being executed even when on death row is something like 1 in 100.  With odds that low, the death penalty is unfair, and no deterrent at all.  (in the USA, women are almost never executed)
5.  FAR to often, people who are later found to be not guilty have been executed.  That should NEVER happen.   
In the case I reference often, if that country had a death penalty, he would have been executed.  He will be out in a year or two and completely exonerated. 










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« Reply #13 on: October 23, 2017, 08:25:19 am »



I have another story about Japan and marijuana.  Roughly 30 years ago, singer Morten Harket of norwegian group a-ha was having a birthday party in Los Angeles (Morten was married at the time with a boy.. but he is bi and spent almost no time with his wife).  Anyway, Morten's boyfriend got nabbed in the airport in Japan with marijuana, resulting in Morten flying to Japan to bail him out for roughly $35,000 USD.  That was a bit embarrassing for Morten.  Years later, Morten got caught again, this time with the lead singer of Aqua named "Lene".  They got in a motorcycle accident in which Lene was riding on back.. exposing their affair.  That resulted in a very expensive divorce for Morten, and also being dumped by Lene who said Morten was too old for her. 

That doesn't read true.

If you're caught with a drug in Japan it's automatic jail. There is no bail for that. To double check what I've heard, I went online and read through a few people's stories with drugs and they all read the same: Forced confession, jail time, deportation. And if you were dealing, a thousand times worse.

Don't know where you got such info about the A-ha guy, but didn't see anything about it online.

IMO the drug laws here are still too lenient. I like the Indonesian/Malay execution as punishment. IMO, that gets it right. 

If you wanna discuss the death penalty, set up a thread on it.
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« Reply #14 on: October 23, 2017, 11:06:01 am »

Obama sent 100 FBI agents to Fruguson to find out the truth.    The FBI proved that "hands up, don't shoot" was a total fucking lie.     Obama and many others still maintained the lie of "hands up, don't shoot".     

Obama invited BLM to the White House, even after all the shit they caused.   They blocked roads, and we know they caused at least 1 child to die because of that.   They chanted about cop killing.    BLM is based on the writings of that cop killer who fled to Cuba.   

Obama maintains the feminist lies, even though government stats prove feminism is based on lies.    In the UK, paying women much less than men is rampant.  HOWEVER, in the 13 years that labour was in power, they only prosecuted 16 small companies.     If it's so rampant, you'd think they would be prosecuting 10,000+ businesses a month.     

Yahoo and HuffPo got female CEOs, who then went on to do a male employee purge.   Not a fucking word from Obama and the rest of the SJW panderers.   

Obama spouted the "just believe" bullshit.   HOWEVER, Lacy Green was never prosecuted for raping over 4 million people. 

Obama spouted the "gender equality" bullshit, but like a typical feminist, he totally ignored the areas when men are far worse off so he could keep spouting the debunked bullshit lies.     Countless liberal governments in the west have done the same thing.      Western governments have pledged to tackle the issue of "women make up 24% of the homeless".   They totally fucking ignored the remaining 76%.     

RAPE IS RAPE, a feminist campaign fought to get some rape classed as rape under federal law.    Sadly, as with feminism, they still insisted that men can rape anyone and women can only rape other women.    They used the UK's anti male sex crime laws as their basis.    But let's not forget that feminism is supposedly about gender equality.   

"There's a special place in hell for women who don't vote for Hillary" we were told by Madeline Albright and countless other women. 

Hillary labelled everyone who didn't support her as "deplorables" and countless other things. 


Black students at Berkley did countless protests with the backing of the City, Police and University.   In their "white people go around" where they forced white kids to walk through the creek to get to class, the police where there to arrest uppity crackers who didn't obey their black masters.     

We saw the same kind of shit at Evergreen.   Black students and their cucks went around with baseball bats looking for disobedient honkeys.    They held the President of the college hostage and wouldn't let him go to the bathroom.     

Hillary and Obama (and countless others) saw nothing wrong with Richard Spencer being sucker punched, under the narrative "punch a Nazi".     

Let's go back to when Obama was first elected President.   GWB's FBI arrested 2 "New Black Panther" protesters for brandishing weapons and making threats to white voters in Philadelphia.    Obama/Holder dropped the charges.     This was a clear sign of what Obama was all about.   

Let's not forget Obama belonged to Rev Jerimiah Wright's church.   You know the one.   It's the one where they slag off the US and white people.   Obama was shown in the video of "It's not god bless America, but god damned America" while he was stiffer than most of his fellow parishioners, he was just as much in agreement as they were with what  Rev Wright was saying. 

Obama routinely lied about the "evil" police and the facts and figures.   He didn't care what the FBI and Justice Depart. said, he spouted whatever SJW narratives said.     
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« Reply #15 on: October 23, 2017, 12:08:38 pm »

Obama sent 100 FBI agents to Fruguson to find out the truth.    The FBI proved that "hands up, don't shoot" was a total fucking lie.     Obama and many others still maintained the lie of "hands up, don't shoot".     

Obama invited BLM to the White House, even after all the shit they caused.   They blocked roads, and we know they caused at least 1 child to die because of that.   They chanted about cop killing.    BLM is based on the writings of that cop killer who fled to Cuba.   

Obama maintains the feminist lies, even though government stats prove feminism is based on lies.    In the UK, paying women much less than men is rampant.  HOWEVER, in the 13 years that labour was in power, they only prosecuted 16 small companies.     If it's so rampant, you'd think they would be prosecuting 10,000+ businesses a month.     

Yahoo and HuffPo got female CEOs, who then went on to do a male employee purge.   Not a fucking word from Obama and the rest of the SJW panderers.   

Obama spouted the "just believe" bullshit.   HOWEVER, Lacy Green was never prosecuted for raping over 4 million people. 

Obama spouted the "gender equality" bullshit, but like a typical feminist, he totally ignored the areas when men are far worse off so he could keep spouting the debunked bullshit lies.     Countless liberal governments in the west have done the same thing.      Western governments have pledged to tackle the issue of "women make up 24% of the homeless".   They totally fucking ignored the remaining 76%.     

RAPE IS RAPE, a feminist campaign fought to get some rape classed as rape under federal law.    Sadly, as with feminism, they still insisted that men can rape anyone and women can only rape other women.    They used the UK's anti male sex crime laws as their basis.    But let's not forget that feminism is supposedly about gender equality.   

"There's a special place in hell for women who don't vote for Hillary" we were told by Madeline Albright and countless other women. 

Hillary labelled everyone who didn't support her as "deplorables" and countless other things. 


Black students at Berkley did countless protests with the backing of the City, Police and University.   In their "white people go around" where they forced white kids to walk through the creek to get to class, the police where there to arrest uppity crackers who didn't obey their black masters.     

We saw the same kind of shit at Evergreen.   Black students and their cucks went around with baseball bats looking for disobedient honkeys.    They held the President of the college hostage and wouldn't let him go to the bathroom.     

Hillary and Obama (and countless others) saw nothing wrong with Richard Spencer being sucker punched, under the narrative "punch a Nazi".     

Let's go back to when Obama was first elected President.   GWB's FBI arrested 2 "New Black Panther" protesters for brandishing weapons and making threats to white voters in Philadelphia.    Obama/Holder dropped the charges.     This was a clear sign of what Obama was all about.   

Let's not forget Obama belonged to Rev Jerimiah Wright's church.   You know the one.   It's the one where they slag off the US and white people.   Obama was shown in the video of "It's not god bless America, but god damned America" while he was stiffer than most of his fellow parishioners, he was just as much in agreement as they were with what  Rev Wright was saying. 

Obama routinely lied about the "evil" police and the facts and figures.   He didn't care what the FBI and Justice Depart. said, he spouted whatever SJW narratives said.     


I don't think Obama was any "anti-christ", but I think OBAMA believed he was the anti-christ.  Obama seemed to do everything possible to bring the USA down and help the muslim nations out.   Obama gutted the military, pretty much shut NASA down, tried to bankrupt the country with healthcare that was impossible to fund,  doubled the national debt, tried to shut down the coal, oil, and nuclear industries, tried to bankrupt the country and make retirees money worthless by raising the minimum wage to $15/hour,  destroyed all the good relationships we had with other countries, etc.
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« Reply #16 on: October 23, 2017, 02:03:51 pm »

I don't think Obama was any "anti-christ", but I think OBAMA believed he was the anti-christ.  Obama seemed to do everything possible to bring the USA down and help the muslim nations out.   Obama gutted the military, pretty much shut NASA down, tried to bankrupt the country with healthcare that was impossible to fund,  doubled the national debt, tried to shut down the coal, oil, and nuclear industries, tried to bankrupt the country and make retirees money worthless by raising the minimum wage to $15/hour,  destroyed all the good relationships we had with other countries, etc.

I have to do some reading before I can have an opinion on what raphjd wrote.

But a few of the things you added to the list are unfair.

Obama had no choice but to raise the national debt because he inherited the post-Lehman economy. And unless you're a professional economist we can set this aside because there's no use arguing about it.

"Tried to bankrupt the country" is false rhetoric.

And his goal with the Muslims was to find peace in Israel. Had he held to his original word, I don't know what would have happened. I'm assuming he found out global politics is more difficult than he imagined. Some of the resulting policies that came out of those initial ideas in his first year, like increasing immigration and refugee numbers from Muslim majority countries, I strongly disagree with though I understand he was trying to help and he was approaching the problem from a globalist mindset.
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« Reply #17 on: October 23, 2017, 03:28:25 pm »

I agree that Obama tends to get blamed for some things he really wasn't at fault for, such as the economy when he took office.   


HOWEVER, he is guilty of a lot of things, such as lying  his ass off to get elected.   He slagged off GWB (and rightly so) for things like the Patriot Act, warrantless wiretaps, no bid contracts and many, many other things.   Turns out, Obama was nothing more than a liar and far worse than GWB when it came to many of these things.   

When it comes to no bid contracts, they can be acceptable in emergencies, but to simply mothball a ship, isn't one of those times.      The same goes for scheduled maint. on ships.   

Obama used LGBTs as a political ploy to get elected.  Watch his political career and see how he flip flops on the topic depending on the political office he's trying to get.   

Obama, like many other black and/or liberal politicians, race baited things like "hands up, don't shoot" even after the FBI proved they were lies.   

A full look at the FBI and Justice Depart stats, proves BLM is based on nothing but lies and bullshit.     Obama still invited them to the White House, even though we know of at least 1 case where a child was MURDERD by BLM blocking the highway and not letting the ambulance through.    Let's not forget the chants about killing cops. 

Obama, through the Justice Dept's Equalities Division, illegally and dishonestly, changed the way rape and sexual assaults were handled on college campuses.     We went from a court of law to a mentally retarded kangaroo court to persecute young men, because under feminism women didn't have the same rules as men.       A girl is "raped" even if she is sober and she admits she had sex with a man who is so drunk he keeps passing out.     
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« Reply #18 on: October 24, 2017, 12:48:01 am »

I agree that Obama tends to get blamed for some things he really wasn't at fault for, such as the economy when he took office.  


HOWEVER, he is guilty of a lot of things, such as lying  his ass off to get elected.   He slagged off GWB (and rightly so) for things like the Patriot Act, warrantless wiretaps, no bid contracts and many, many other things.   Turns out, Obama was nothing more than a liar and far worse than GWB when it came to many of these things.  

When it comes to no bid contracts, they can be acceptable in emergencies, but to simply mothball a ship, isn't one of those times.      The same goes for scheduled maint. on ships.  

Obama used LGBTs as a political ploy to get elected.  Watch his political career and see how he flip flops on the topic depending on the political office he's trying to get.  

Obama, like many other black and/or liberal politicians, race baited things like "hands up, don't shoot" even after the FBI proved they were lies.    

A full look at the FBI and Justice Depart stats, proves BLM is based on nothing but lies and bullshit.     Obama still invited them to the White House, even though we know of at least 1 case where a child was MURDERD by BLM blocking the highway and not letting the ambulance through.    Let's not forget the chants about killing cops.  

Obama, through the Justice Dept's Equalities Division, illegally and dishonestly, changed the way rape and sexual assaults were handled on college campuses.     We went from a court of law to a mentally retarded kangaroo court to persecute young men, because under feminism women didn't have the same rules as men.       A girl is "raped" even if she is sober and she admits she had sex with a man who is so drunk he keeps passing out.    

Most everything happens in "waves".  When something is down, it tends to go up.. and when up.. it tends to go down.  When Obama took office, the economy was extremely DOWN.. one would expect that it would go up.  
In Obama's first year it didn't go up..
In Obama's second year it didn't go up.  
In Obama's third year it didn't go up.
In Obama's fourth year it didn't go up.
In Obama's fifth year it didn't go up.
In Obama's sixth year it didn't go up.
In Obama's seventh year it didn't go up.
In Obama's eighth year it didn't go up.
Then Trump was elected.. and before Trump was even inaugurated, the economy started to rise like a ball bouncing the day he was elected.. and has continued to rise since then.  
As history will show, Obama was the worst president ever.  
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« Reply #19 on: October 24, 2017, 12:50:57 am »

Poll votes can be changed.  
I would suggest that the people who said that  PROTESTING another group's event is not VIOLATING their FREEDOM OF SPEECH should reconsider their vote.
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