How big should the government be?
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« on: November 18, 2017, 10:29:57 pm »

It seems to me we're all under a great tree focusing on the individual twigs and leaves but if we trace a line back to branch, bough, and truck we can eventually get to the root: How much government do we actually need and why?

We need the government to....

We don't need the government to....

I'm going to go out on a limb and say we don't need the government to police language. I'm pretty comfortable with the government holding all the power to defend us from foreign aggression. I'm less comfortable with government being involved in education -- we got on fine without government interference for hundreds of years.

So to focus on broader topics lets find out how we'd each prune the great tree of civilization.
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« Reply #1 on: November 19, 2017, 05:12:48 am »

I guess it is a constant juggling, depending on the historical context and current situation of a country.

Here in Mexico, at least, we still remember the 'paternalist state', where the goverment helped out in almost everything.  We got both good and bad things about that. Amongst the good things, we got free (or really cheap) education from Elementary up to College and social security (which fluctuates from bad to decent to good)

Amongst the bad things we got lazy entrepenours who couldn't save their own lives when we got into the NAFTA, tons of bad syndicates and a culture of corruption and no responsibility.

A laissez faire type of State isn't good, but a big-machine-type state like the Socialist model isn't good either.

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« Reply #2 on: November 19, 2017, 03:37:09 pm »

There's a lot of varience in this.

Government is the expression of a Nation.  What areas does the Nation think their government should be regulating?  Does the Nation want a State religion?  Is education private or public, national or regional?  Is the government responsible for employment levels?  How about infrastructure?  Does the Nation wish to have international clout or does it prefer to be left alone?

Myself, I think the ideal is for people to be able to immigrate/emigrate freely to choose what type of society they want to live in.  If you want to wear a niqab then move to Saudi Arabia not Canada.  If you want the freedoms of Canada the respect the responsibilities of Canada.
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« Reply #3 on: November 20, 2017, 01:17:04 pm »

There's a lot of varience in this.

Myself, I think the ideal is for people to be able to immigrate/emigrate freely to choose what type of society they want to live in.  If you want to wear a niqab then move to Saudi Arabia not Canada.  If you want the freedoms of Canada the respect the responsibilities of Canada.

I think the variance is what makes it an interesting question. I'm more a libertarian thinker with conservative values. For me that translates to live and let live unless they're inhibiting your freedoms.

I'm cool with relaxing most regulations. I think many of the departments in the government should be shut down and the military scaled back for self-defense only and all that money be diverted back into infrastructure projects with the people can use directly.

I'm not a fan of welfare. I think charities do a better job and getting assistance out there. I don't think it's the government's job to put the world on a level playing field but, rather, to protect the citizens from abuses of power.

As for open borders, I'm not a fan. I'd prefer a more draconian immigration policy that screens for the best rather than charity cases.

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« Reply #4 on: November 20, 2017, 08:33:09 pm »

What you are describing is called Minarchism.  One of the main proponents was Ayn Rand.

I tend to support political theories and analysis based on Jewish tradition.  What does the Torah say about legal systems?  What does the Talmud say about the obligations of a Jewish citizen in a non-Jewish state?  What is in the public sphere and what is in the private sphere?
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« Reply #5 on: November 20, 2017, 10:42:38 pm »

I tend to support political theories and analysis based on Jewish tradition.  What does the Torah say about legal systems?  What does the Talmud say about the obligations of a Jewish citizen in a non-Jewish state?  What is in the public sphere and what is in the private sphere?

Wouldn't that be Objectivism?

So answer the questions: What do the Torah and Talmud say about these things?  You can't show the trailer to a movie and never release the film.  Grin
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« Reply #6 on: November 21, 2017, 06:32:38 am »

So,
1/  Objectivists are Minarchists but not all Minarchists are Objectivists.

2/  The Torah and the Talmud are enormous works.  Is there a more specific question that you'd like to see than just 'Government'?

well, one example is in Shoftim - Moses' instructions to judges (Deuteronomy 16:19)
Quote
19.  You shall not pervert justice; you shall not show favoritism, and you shall not take a bribe, for bribery blinds the eyes of the wise and perverts just words.
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« Reply #7 on: November 21, 2017, 06:42:19 am »

The government should be as small as it can be while making sure the state functions properly. 
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« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2017, 10:13:17 am »

So,
1/  Objectivists are Minarchists but not all Minarchists are Objectivists.

2/  The Torah and the Talmud are enormous works.  Is there a more specific question that you'd like to see than just 'Government'?

well, one example is in Shoftim - Moses' instructions to judges (Deuteronomy 16:19)
Quote
19.  You shall not pervert justice; you shall not show favoritism, and you shall not take a bribe, for bribery blinds the eyes of the wise and perverts just words.

The Torah verse just seems like a moral commonsense statement. In evaluating a government I suppose it'd be useful but not in deciding what services a government should provide.

According to Wikipedia I actually fall into classic liberalism. I think there's little benefit in the broader vision as it creates dependency on the state which is what we see a lot of now (in the states). However, making sure the food supply and energy are maintained is something I can get behind. (Coincidentally, they just started debating whether or not to make education free in Japan today. Personally, I don't think they should.)



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« Reply #9 on: November 21, 2017, 12:36:35 pm »

The government should be as small as it can be while making sure the state functions properly. 


What if the state doesn't function properly no matter how big or small?
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« Reply #10 on: November 21, 2017, 03:21:25 pm »

That wasn't the question. 

If it doesn't work then it needs to change or be overthrown. 
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« Reply #11 on: November 21, 2017, 10:15:16 pm »

That wasn't the question. 

If it doesn't work then it needs to change or be overthrown. 

I just went back to the original question. 
It should be noted that liberals love government to be as big as possible.. controlling every aspect of our lives - much like communism which has been a proven failure around the world.  The only way communism works is in a harsh, evil, draconian, dictatorship.  A dictator can be good, but that doesn't seem to happen often.

Conservatives prefer government to be minimal, with not much regulation, and plenty of freedom. 

Liberal government is for losers.   Conservative government is for people who want to live their own lives instead of being an insignificant ant in a colony.  It's ironic that liberals rant about slavery.. while at the same time want to be slaves to their government!
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« Reply #12 on: November 22, 2017, 04:57:00 am »

As we found out with Flint MI and other places, big government doesn't work.    For a decade, the EPA failed to spot the problem with Flint's water.   If they would have followed their own rules, they would have spotted it within 6 months.   

In the UK, the insurance regulator was told by one of the big insurance companies that they were having problems so the regulator told them to sell as many accounts as they could, knowing the company was about to fail.    Huge scandal.   Anyway, no one was fired or anything.  They just changed the name of the regulator and told us to forget all the horrible shit they did.    Thank you, Labour (liberal) government. 

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« Reply #13 on: November 22, 2017, 07:18:04 am »

As we found out with Flint MI and other places, big government doesn't work.    For a decade, the EPA failed to spot the problem with Flint's water.   If they would have followed their own rules, they would have spotted it within 6 months.  

In the UK, the insurance regulator was told by one of the big insurance companies that they were having problems so the regulator told them to sell as many accounts as they could, knowing the company was about to fail.    Huge scandal.   Anyway, no one was fired or anything.  They just changed the name of the regulator and told us to forget all the horrible shit they did.    Thank you, Labour (liberal) government.  



An interesting thing about Flint, Michigan is.. that is where mega moonbat Michael Moore is from, and where he is STILL based!
HEY MICHAEL!  How about doing something about FLINT MICHIGAN?    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Moore
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« Reply #14 on: November 23, 2017, 05:53:26 am »

I consider myself a libertarian so you could tell where I am going... less government please. They are amoebas living on my taxes so, less and less.
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« Reply #15 on: November 23, 2017, 06:13:14 am »

I consider myself a libertarian so you could tell where I am going... less government please. They are amoebas living on my taxes so, less and less.

Around here, they have put up cameras at pretty much all intersections.  While that sounds annoying, it is actually great.. because it has vastly reduced the number of cops on the roads.  Now they have more time to sit parked in remote places and jack off while watching porn on their laptops. 
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« Reply #16 on: November 23, 2017, 07:43:49 am »

The UK has the most CCTV cameras (not counting speed and red light cameras) per person of any country.   This is based on official government figures and doesn't include privately owned stuff.
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« Reply #17 on: November 23, 2017, 03:42:04 pm »

The UK has the most CCTV cameras (not counting speed and red light cameras) per person of any country.   This is based on official government figures and doesn't include privately owned stuff.

I guess people have not read the book "1984" by George Orwell.  People don't seem to mind "big brother".  I don't like cameras on me - especially when I'm in a restaurant.  I can picture someone in India sitting at a cubicle monitoring 20 feeds from a restaurant's cameras. 
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